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Post by mysticjuicer on Jul 13, 2017 19:00:31 GMT 1
Hey all,
19XX ban list has been Troq/Zane/Geiger/DeGrey for the first two instances of the tournament format. I'm considering adding Setsuki to the list, and also removing DeGrey from the list.
I'd like to hear Pros/Cons for either or both decision.
1. ban Setsuki: she's highly represented in 19XX and sees consistent success in the format, she's seeing a lot of representation and fair success in 20XX formats nowadays
2. unban DeGrey: he was originally banned because of consensus that he's super good and also he was very highly represented in 20XX, I personally think he's overrated as S-tier and ranks somewhere around Grave levels maybe?
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jul 13, 2017 19:02:43 GMT 1
Note: Troq/Zane are non-negotiable bans. Geiger also has, I think, a big enough effect on a big enough chunk of the cast, that he should be banned in the format.
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Post by Zqxx on Jul 13, 2017 21:28:03 GMT 1
My instinct as someone who has a personal Vendetta against Setsuki is YES PLEASE BAN HER.
But. I will try to be more balanced here.
1. I suppose deciding whether or not to ban Setsuki would kind of depend on what the goal of banning characters in the 19XX tournaments is. If the goal is to get people to play different characters than they might normally, then yes, I would think banning her would be a good idea. However, if the point is to allow for greater number of possible reasonable character choices, then I'm less sure.
What I mean is, for example, banning Geiger means that Quince becomes a much more viable choice because Geiger would normally just dunk on Quince. I would imagine there are people who might be interested in playing Quince in a normal tournament but choose not to because they do not want to be counter-picked by Geiger. So, banning Geiger allows for a greater number of reasonable character choices by making Quince more reasonable to choose. By contrast, Setsuki is definitely very, very good (and also very, very boring, in my opinion), and she likely goes even or advantaged with most/all the 19XX characters. But, I don't know if she dunks on any specific character in the way Geiger dunks on Quince.
All this is to say, I feel like banning Setsuki would make people who would normally choose Setsuki play someone else. But, I don't know if there are people who are choosing not to play a character in 19XX because Setsuki exists, and thus banning her would let them pick that character. I could be totally wrong about that though.
2. I don't have as much to say about DeGrey. He's a good character. I don't mind playing against him though. Personally I would rather play against DeGrey than Setsuki, just from a "how much fun is this" perspective. I think he may be similar to Setsuki in that there are no characters whose existence he nullifies, so it's more a matter of whether you want to force people who would play DeGrey to pick someone else. I do feel like he isn't that common a choice in the 20XX tournaments at the moment, though, so maybe people just aren't interested in playing him despite how good he supposedly is?
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jul 13, 2017 22:31:33 GMT 1
That basically sums up my feelings about Setsuki as well. I find Setsuki intensely frustrating and unpleasant to play against, but she also doesn't do to characters the same thing that Zane or Troq or Geiger do, imo. So, on the one hand, there can be an argument to be made to ban her because she just gets picked by default by a lot of players, and also enjoys a very high winrate. But on the other hand, is there some "bad" 20XX character that dunks on Sets that just hasn't really been explored?
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Post by ExSeth on Jul 14, 2017 1:38:01 GMT 1
According to the historical MU chart, Setsuki loses to Geiger, Lum, Quince, Oni, Troq, Gloria, and Zane.
The MUCMUC is similar, listing her negative matchups as Grave, Midori, Valerie, Geiger, Lum, Quince, Oni, Troq, and Zane.
So while the 19XX bans certainly do leave Setsuki in a better position, I think she still has a few reasonable counterpicks, albeit on some very unpopular characters. Even in the brave old world of 19XX, I don't see a lot of Lum or Quince flying around.
My vote: don't ban her, not yet. 19XX is a tiny baby format that's had very little time to mature, and it might just be that people are defaulting to a strong, relatively easy character. Having Setsuki exist as a kind of bogeyman in the format might force people to branch out and try new things. That said: I've never actually participated in a 19XX tourney, so maybe value the opinions of those who have done so more than mine.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jul 27, 2017 22:15:34 GMT 1
I think DeGrey is the hardest possible CP for Onimaru, and probably for Lum too. Both like big hands and can't keep him knocked down enough to stop him rompa-stomping all over them for a billion damage. Even if you disagree on how strong DeGrey is across the meta, those two skewed matchups should probably keep him out of 19XX, even if he is a little more fun to play against than Setsuki. Speaking of the ninja, I'd actually go as far as saying 19XX is the reason she is so ubiquitous just now. Taking away her most straightforward CP in Troq has really let everyone see how strong she is against a large chunk of the cast. That said I think the recent increase in Valerie play is due to Sets' gaining a strong foothold in both metas. I cannot wait to see where that ends up going! The first 19XX felt like people celebrating the freedom of "YES I CAN PLAY WHO I WANT", while the 2nd felt like the start of the realisation that Setsuki was the character to find a CP for. I predict that the third and fourth 19XX's are likely to be where an answer is found, assuming one exists. I guess this (surprisingly) places me on the side of keep her in. Though I reserve my right to admit that I was completely wrong and demand her head after she knocks me out the tournament.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Aug 2, 2017 5:57:18 GMT 1
Honestly a rotating list is what I always wanted for this format. I'd propose DeGrey & (potentially Geiger?) for Setsuki & (Argagarg?).
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Aug 2, 2017 6:05:29 GMT 1
1. ban Setsuki: she's highly represented in 19XX and sees consistent success in the format, she's seeing a lot of representation and fair success in 20XX formats nowadays
-I think any character over represented should rotate on the ban list. AFAIK Setsuki/Arg dominate 19XX so I'd like to see them rotated out. Creating a bigger banlist could be bad, but I don't mind it being 5 people big.
2. unban DeGrey: he was originally banned because of consensus that he's super good and also he was very highly represented in 20XX, I personally think he's overrated as S-tier and ranks somewhere around Grave levels maybe?
-DeGrey is a "stupid" character, but his only absurd matchup AFAIK is versus Onimaru/Lum. If he was added I propose Arg be banned so those two can see play. Lum was the least played character last tournament because of how common Argagarg was. If he's overplayed I'd rotate him out again.
*there are a lot of "stupid" characters in Yomi and one of them is Vendetta.*
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Post by thehug0naut on Aug 4, 2017 7:12:27 GMT 1
Even though I have recently discovered the joy of fish, I'd be fine with Argagarg being banned from 19XX on a rotating basis. Swapping Arg and DeGrey would make Rook a bunch more viable which I think is a most excellent plan. mysticjuicer consider my vote on DeGrey officially changed if Argagarg was swapped out in his place. For the record I still think Geiger needs to be banned. Not only is he the third member of the 20XX headline meta, he also makes all four of Jaina, Midori, Rook and Quince super super sad.
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