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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 14:10:01 GMT 1
I got to play a little Spearmaster (Shifu) over the weekend! He's really fun. The spear pull having 2 charges and being able to latch onto walls is such a nice QoL change for him. In BLC it felt like so much of his effectiveness was based on whether he landed his first spear pull or not, so it's great that has been evened out a little. I don't remember any of his rites except for one of the first ones you can get is a 1s root when you land the spear pull. That seems pretty mandatory to get, heh, so I didn't really consider the others. No Blood Priest in the game yet makes me sad sitting around in a swarm of flies was one of the best feelings. Can't wait for the 20th!
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 8, 2016 15:02:19 GMT 1
I got to play a little Spearmaster (Shifu) over the weekend! He's really fun. The spear pull having 2 charges and being able to latch onto walls is such a nice QoL change for him. In BLC it felt like so much of his effectiveness was based on whether he landed his first spear pull or not, so it's great that has been evened out a little. I don't remember any of his rites except for one of the first ones you can get is a 1s root when you land the spear pull. That seems pretty mandatory to get, heh, so I didn't really consider the others. No Blood Priest in the game yet makes me sad sitting around in a swarm of flies was one of the best feelings. Can't wait for the 20th! I really enjoy the double spears too, but I think the best thing is that if you position yourself right, you can initiate even on a missed spear thanks to the wall latching. The consensus on Shifu rites currently seems to be: R1: Impale 33% heal R2: 3 charges on Kunju R3: Kunju heal R4: +1 max change It makes sustainable to the point of being almost unkillable, and guaranteed 48 damage + 26 heal off of a successful Kunju is pretty crazy (or even more at R4). I agree that Root is crazy good in Battlerite, but I think I'd like to see that Rite moved to R2 or R3 or buff it to 1.5 seconds if it's gonna stay on R1. People usually have enough mobility abilities to not be too worried about the root. One build I enjoyed a lot with Shifu was R1: 2 sec Fleetfoot, R2: 3 charges on Kunju (obviously), R3: Fleetfoot M1 +8 damage. He doesn't become as sustainable as he would be with the first build I mentioned, but against comps where you're not afraid of their burst for whatever reason, or comps where you think you could simply out-DPS, this build feels so damn good. 2 seconds invuln while you're attacking is good for the entire match (2 seconds is enough to get the three M1s needed for maxed Impale, so you get +28 damage 'for free' since you can't get hurt), and at R3 it snowballs really hard with the +8 damage per strike. I don't miss Blood Priest, because I didn't play him. I don't miss Blood Priest, because both his EXes are insane. I don't miss Blood Priest, because Blood Shield is cancer. I don't miss Blood Priest. This has been a poem by Kraetyz.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 8, 2016 18:22:29 GMT 1
Spearmaster is pretty strong. He looks like maybe the strongest melee currently in the game by a considerable margin. He's got decent burst if he can get impale off, and very good sustain. I think he's more durable than Batto right now between the counter and the healing. He's slightly less mobile and only has one escape, though. He also has a really solid CC on R and some other reasonable CC, and because of the way Javelin works he's maybe the hardest melee to escape from. EX Javelin is also pretty good for peeling another melee off of your squishy.
I'm not really sure what SM's weaknesses are. Toward the end of the beta I was tending to pick him as my melee over Batto or Ranid, because he feels strong and more well-rounded. I usually played the 2s Fleetfoot+bonus damage build Kraetyz mentioned against comps where I needed to burn stuff down fast, or where they relied heavily on CCs rather than escapes - for example, Alchmesist. If she puts her shield on someone else, there's literally nothing she can do except roll to deal with an immaterial SM bashing her face in. And roll burns energy and has a long cooldown.
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I do not miss Blood Priest either. I think he was one of the least-well-designed characters in original BLC.
"Oh, let's have a healer who takes damage to heal people. That's an interesting mechanic, right?" Sure. "Wait, now he dies really easily. What if dealing damage reduced the damage he dealt himself?" Okay, that's fair. That encourages him to do more than healbot. "And what if healing other people gave him small life leech?" I guess that's not too unreasonable. "And a shield!" Wait, Alchemist has a shield and she doesn't have any mobility skills. He's got a teleport and an EX that telports him. "It's okay, the shield doesn't block damage, it only reflects a third of it." I guess that's... "And heals the Blood Priest for a third of it!" What? Why? "And he clearly needs CC so let's give him a strong knockback and a strong fear effect." Okay I gu- "And make his teleport also a CC that heals him and gets extra range if he hits an enemy with it!" I give up.
The basic problem was that the Blood Priest ended up being ridiculously durable and hard to kill. If he shields himself, you take the same amount of damage as you deal to him for the duration. And he's very capable of self-healing. And he has a ton of CC and mobility. If he shields a melee that just dove into the enemy group, well...
Anyway, based on what they've done with other characters, I would predict Blood Shield would be an EX, possibly a 2-bar EX, if it's still in the game. Or it might become his 15 second cooldown R ability. If it doesn't, I'd guess that his EX-Q becomes his R ability. Also given the changes to healing, his M2 would probably end up getting nerfed a bit. But if he maintains the same level of durability in the healing-reduced world of BattleRite, he'd be waaaay too strong.
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 8, 2016 20:03:22 GMT 1
"Oh, let's have a healer who takes damage to heal people. That's an interesting mechanic, right?" Sure. "Wait, now he dies really easily. What if dealing damage reduced the damage he dealt himself?" Okay, that's fair. That encourages him to do more than healbot. "And what if healing other people gave him small life leech?" I guess that's not too unreasonable. "And a shield!" Wait, Alchemist has a shield and she doesn't have any mobility skills. He's got a teleport and an EX that telports him. "It's okay, the shield doesn't block damage, it only reflects a third of it." I guess that's... "And heals the Blood Priest for a third of it!" What? Why? "And he clearly needs CC so let's give him a strong knockback and a strong fear effect." Okay I gu- "And make his teleport also a CC that heals him and gets extra range if he hits an enemy with it!" I give up. Jesus fuck this is so much truth. Why is Possession a self-healing immaterial CC that goes through walls and gets increased duration on enemy hits? Why does EX-E heal AND blind AND slow AND have huge range? Why does Blood Shield HEAL him? [screaming] Anyway, back to Battlerite. I like all of Freya's R1 rites. People used the double Storm Mace a lot, but the Pull+Shield on Thunderclap has a lot of value when you need to be a durable brawler (plus makes you stickier), and the Static on your first hit after jumping is a super good opener if you need to focus someone down quickly (because it only uses one ability CD to Static + Initiate, instead of two) :3
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 8, 2016 21:18:24 GMT 1
Yeah, Blood Priest had too much internal synergy and too much survivability. If he'd didn't have a heal and had some other M2, he'd have been a pretty good tank. --- I didn't play as Freya at all, and I only played against her a little. I played in a party with a guy who played Ravener though. She's... interesting. She seems to be substantially more durable than I remember, and has a lot more brief interrupts than I remember, which makes her annoying to melee as anything with slightly slower cast animations. I probably should've looked into it more.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 13, 2016 5:07:20 GMT 1
In a silly turn of events, I have a spare BattleRite key, which @shadowfury333 gets first right of refusal on. But seriously, someone should make use of it! Also, steamcommunity.com/app/504370/discussions/0/343786195673763501/ has a couple of giveaways that have more keys at the time of this posting. But seriously use the one I have first.
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Post by eji1700 on Sept 15, 2016 5:00:21 GMT 1
how to oldur?
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Post by kohake on Sept 15, 2016 12:25:32 GMT 1
I like all of Freya's R1 rites. People used the double Storm Mace a lot, but the Pull+Shield on Thunderclap has a lot of value when you need to be a durable brawler (plus makes you stickier), and the Static on your first hit after jumping is a super good opener if you need to focus someone down quickly (because it only uses one ability CD to Static + Initiate, instead of two) :3 Freya has a crazy CC combo if you pick Twin Hammers and Overcharge (trance inflicts static on cast). You can do: E > M2(Incap) > Q > Wait > M2 > ExSpace > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2. It requiers a rather specific set up and costs 25 energy, but it's a solid 10.5s lockdown with only one window for escape (the second Thunderclap). If you've got ultimate and want more damage you can do: E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2 > Ultimate > M2 > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2. Grants 129 damage and lasts 10 seconds. Damage can be further improved with the Thunderstruck rite. The most useful practical combo I've found is probably: ExSpace > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2 but you can start a short version of the combo from any one of your incaps. E > M2 > Q > M2 is nice and easy and doesn't cost you any energy.
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Post by eji1700 on Sept 15, 2016 12:40:26 GMT 1
I have oldur to 8, so brief noob guide:
M1- does lots of damage, but mostly due to the debuff part, so while you'll be spamming it a ton your dps is somewhat capped (more on that later).
M2- its a heal. YAY.
Q- So very very good. It's a great way to get melee off you and annoy ranged heroes, let alone when you catch a snipe and throw it in their face.
E- your main source of...well everything. It procs the debuff damage instantly, does good damage, and is a large AOE with a fading snare. Basically whenever you want to go on offense you hit people with your M1 and then drop E on them to instantly burst the debuff, and then hit them with M1 again. Otherwise use this to zone/combo.
Space- it's a space. Heals allies hurts enemies (8) and not much else unless you rite it.
Meter Options:
M1- slightly higher damage but it instantly pops the debuff so something like M1, E, M1, EX M1, M1 is your damage "combo".
Q- I've never used it, but it's like pearl bubble in that it slows, but it reflects projectiles rather than catching. Might be really really good?
R- Melee petrify for 3.5 seconds. Use this to just instantly eliminate someone from a fight, and a great way to get melee off of you.
F- Half the reason you pick this guy. The ult is nuts and basically if your allies are half decent sets up insane combos while also saving them from bullshit (and as a healing you build meter fast) . Of note if you land this yourself your best bet is to instantly E and M1 for some damage (if the stun hits), as oldur doesn't have a ton of ways to actually hurt someone.
Rites:
1-
I could see an argument for all 3, but two probably require major specialization and skill, so at the very least while you're learning the 1.5 second root is amazing. It lets you kite or combo easily.
2-
I tend to take either of the heals, but maybe the offensive option is legit? It gives him a meterless/easy way to pop the debuff to really up his DPS and maybe even combo into his E. Anyways the question I usually ask is "am i being zerged". If yes i get the shield because it can heal a lot (especially against multihit ranged characters) and if no I get the heal buff because the extra 8 HP adds up fast.
3-
Heal upgrade I think is the no question choice here, at least for 2v2. That cd reduction is bonkers.
4-
I never get the orb, so the only thing to figure out is if the enemy team has a healer or not. If they do I go for the 20% healing reduction, and if not i do the 10% heal and attack reduction.
5-
I've got to try combo goat one of these days because this seems way too easy a choice if that's not viable. The 2's time lapse effect is way way better than getting his debuff off on everyone.
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 15, 2016 14:25:07 GMT 1
About Oldur R2 and R3: R2, the Space pops Sands is amazing. It increases your offensive potential, yes, but more importantly it lets you kite harder. The moment someone gets to you, you don't have to rely on them being bad and hitting your Q - you can just hit them once and Snare them as you retreat.
R3, I don't know how much 6% CDR does. I usually take the Shield on space-through, because 14 shield + 10 (I think) heal is a pretty legit way to keep your ally/ies alive and well.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 15, 2016 17:56:45 GMT 1
I'm pretty sure Oldur's EX Q is pretty darn good. Reflecting projectiles seems really really strong?
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 15, 2016 22:02:36 GMT 1
Freya has a crazy CC combo if you pick Twin Hammers and Overcharge (trance inflicts static on cast). You can do: E > M2(Incap) > Q > Wait > M2 > ExSpace > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2. It requiers a rather specific set up and costs 25 energy, but it's a solid 10.5s lockdown with only one window for escape (the second Thunderclap). If you've got ultimate and want more damage you can do: E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2 > Ultimate > M2 > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2. Grants 129 damage and lasts 10 seconds. Damage can be further improved with the Thunderstruck rite. The most useful practical combo I've found is probably: ExSpace > E > M2 > Q > Wait > M2 but you can start a short version of the combo from any one of your incaps. E > M2 > Q > M2 is nice and easy and doesn't cost you any energy. I've used that first combo once or twice. I know you mentioned it on the Discord a while back. "You don't get to play" is so real in Battlerite, lol. I mean, if you combo it with, say, a Lucie's Petrify, you can probably get your shit off CD to make it last even longer. Perpetual 2v1 with just some tricky CC management needed.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 16, 2016 1:32:32 GMT 1
You could do some pretty strong CC chaining in BLC, too, though? But that requires the non-CC'd members of the team (in either game) to fail to do anything to disrupt it, like landing CC of their own.
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 16, 2016 6:46:43 GMT 1
You could do some pretty strong CC chaining in BLC, too, though? But that requires the non-CC'd members of the team (in either game) to fail to do anything to disrupt it, like landing CC of their own. BLC didn't have quite as much CC on single characters, not quite as long CC. So, it usually required more team work to do the long CCs. Freya can shit on a person for 10 seconds without even needing the help of her team. And yes, it requires your team mates to not be idiots. Same in BR as in BLC. Can't recall how many Tendon Swings I've hit on 2 people that have been immediately negated thanks to spammy team mates. Q_Q
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 16, 2016 13:52:07 GMT 1
PROTIP: Follow me on the Odeum. I upload average plays with kinda funny titles.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 16, 2016 18:39:37 GMT 1
And yes, it requires your team mates to not be idiots. Same in BR as in BLC. Can't recall how many Tendon Swings I've hit on 2 people that have been immediately negated thanks to spammy team mates. Q_Q Yes, this is the worst. Or I stone someone as Astro and then my teammate(s) unload on them because they're not moving and an easy target. Freya is the only character who I think has a ton of CC, and IIRC she used to have less hard CC, and more ridiculous knockback, so I'm kind of okay with this.
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 17, 2016 9:45:06 GMT 1
And yes, it requires your team mates to not be idiots. Same in BR as in BLC. Can't recall how many Tendon Swings I've hit on 2 people that have been immediately negated thanks to spammy team mates. Q_Q Yes, this is the worst. Or I stone someone as Astro and then my teammate(s) unload on them because they're not moving and an easy target. Freya is the only character who I think has a ton of CC, and IIRC she used to have less hard CC, and more ridiculous knockback, so I'm kind of okay with this. Astro can Rite for Lesser Lunar Strike which gives him, like, 4-4.5 seconds of Petrify I guess? But yeah, Freya has most of all, but in general characters have longer CC than in bloodlines. Lots of 3+ seconds shit.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 17, 2016 20:51:20 GMT 1
The rite does not let you stack CC, or it didn't when I tested it. When I hit someone who was already stoned with it, nothing happened, and the recast timer is much shorter than the duration. It's much better used to hit a second target, or to hit a target that tried to escape the first hit, in my opinion.
I think you're probably underestimating the duration of CCs in BLC. I did some quick googling, and it looks like there were a fair number of 2 or 2.5 second softer CCs like Fear and Silence. the only full CCs that last a long time in BLC are either incaps, which break on damage, or petrifies, which give you a shield and the CC breaks when the shield breaks. And a bunch of CCs were removed, like the Nomad's ability to Tornado enemies, the Gunner's Mortar, and the Astro's castspeed debuff (which was 3.5 seconds of 33% reduced move/cast speed, iirc.)
And none of the 3.5 second incaps I can think of are easy or free. One is on a 15 second cooldown R ability (SM), and the another is triggered off of Ranid's EX stealth. Freya has a 2s Incap on her M2 and a 2.5 off of her EX Space. Batto has a 3.5 second incap off his EX Space.
Ranid lost his EX Blind, too. And Spearmaster's incap used to be a regular cooldown.
So like... I think given the generally slower pace of the game, the slightly longer full-stop CCs are more or less okay?
I've seen some people execute the really long incap combos. Freya is really the only one who can do it herself, and she has to both take the correct battlerites, and blow a bunch of energy and cooldowns to do it, and she can't really help out with the rest of the fight much while she's doing it. Most of the time, attempting these kinds of repeated CC combos actually gets the team doing it into trouble. The "best" case scenario is Freya locks down one while her teammate mauls the fuck out of the other in 2s. In 3s, Freya often gets mobbed and mauled if she uses her EX space as part of a chain incap?
2-character combos usually mean blowing CCs and staying relatively near the person you're locking down. Which can often mean someone gets mauled by the other opponent, if they're a DPS, or the healer does some healing.
I guess the tl;dr is this: If a team wins through chaining incaps and CCs in a way that locks someone totally out of the game, they probably would've won anyway, because that's a significant level of outplaying. But I can also totally see how this could be feelbad if someone gets locked down and their random teammate(s) don't respond correctly, or newer players get exposed to it from experienced players through matchmaking being less-than-perfect.
It's weird that nobody really complains about fear, when a well-executed fear takes someone out of play for much longer than 3.5 seconds. I guess because after 2 you get control back and can spend the next 2-3 seconds getting back to the fight under your own steam? Fear is strong, yo.
I'd honestly prefer less hard CC (stuns, incaps, fear, and petrifies) and more medium (silence, blind) or soft (slow, fading snare, weaken, and similar.) I think certain stuns are necessary (like the Ranid's stealth stun), but a lot of characters have hard CC as a panic button/alternative out, and skillful use of those can turn a solid win into a total rout, which feels bad.
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Post by platyp on Sept 17, 2016 23:06:02 GMT 1
I've been spamming Freya in 2s and she's really fun! I've noticed that I almost always want to take Twin Hammers R1, but Torrent (makes E pull and shield yourself) is often very strong against enemy double melee. I don't think it's very good against ranged because the pull isn't super strong, so I'd rather just go for easier incaps with Twin Hammers. I haven't been using Charged Lightning much, and that might be a mistake. I've definitely been in some games (especially vs Ranged + Support) where looking back I wish I could have had the extra CC.
It also feels so much harder to get max damage out of her than with like SM. I think I prefer having an Engi, Gunner, or Nomad teammate than a healer so I can just take the utility/support rites and be annoying.
One thing that's really giving me trouble is deciding when to spend meter. I played BLC before they introduced EX moves and I never was quite able to adapt to them. I don't feel like EX E (Thunderslam) is worth the meter, because it basically just changes the AoE to a line and adds fading snare, but I really need to get used to using EX Space and R more. I've found R in particular very useful against double melee because you can usually get a big shield off of it, especially when you take Torrent R1. The problem is that her ult is so good, and it feels so good to use, that I never want to spend meter ever.
EDIT: I've done some more testing. I REALLY don't like Charged Lightning at the moment. Fading Snare is meaningless when they can just space away. It's much easier to incap with Twin Hammer, then chase their space with your space. I feel like it'd be more interesting if they switched the R3 Space rite (the one that makes Space give you a shield if you M1 someone during the speed boost) with Charged Lightning.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 18, 2016 0:41:12 GMT 1
Fading Snare is actually really really good. It's just, uh... If you're using that, you don't want to use your space before they've used theirs. Try to find some other way to close the gap! Being able to chase their space with your space and then snare them is pretty good, especially against characters that don't have other good "get off me!" options.
I agree that Freya plus a more support/control-y healer is probably not a great team. Freya is a very tanky melee at the moment, but doesn't have quite the same damage output as SM or Ranid. Freya and Sirius (Astro) is a pretty good team, though, in my experience. Siriu's damage output is pretty good, and he's got a few high-burst options. Being able to drop Lunar Strike on Incapacitated enemies is probably the most problematic chain-CC I've seen yet, and the combo has great sustain and good mobility.
I hate having Engineer teammates most of the time. Engineer has so many noob trap options, and so many Engineers are just ineffectual. You have to get pretty up close and personal with her to be efficient. Instead, I see a lot of Engineers launch a rocket, then Jetpack forward to initiate, take a couple of shots, and U-turn. And then... nothing. Maybe another Rocket? Or trying to use the shotgun from its maximum range, or never ever using Flamethrower. Good Engineers can be effective DPS and support, though, so I've softened my stance on Engineer being basically trash.
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Post by platyp on Sept 18, 2016 1:46:04 GMT 1
I mean, if you don't take Twin Hammers, you have to close the gap with either Q or Space, and Space is bad. Maybe EX E -> M2 as well? Barring a teammate doing it for you, of course. I don't really consider Torrent a gap closer because of its tiny range, but it can help keep them there once you're there.
I think the other melee characters have more/more reliable gap closers than Freya, so when you're against heavy poke it seems like you have to take Twin Hammers and just poke back. She seems better at that than the other melee characters, at least. At any rate, there are actually quite a few healers in 2.1k range on latter where I am, so playing Freya here is not a great idea. I'm having much more success with Ranid.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 18, 2016 2:43:35 GMT 1
I uh... honestly find that "running indirectly and erratically toward people" is a pretty good gap closer.
I don't know if it's "correct" play, but a lot of my games involve mounted footsies at the beginning, as the teams have a polite discussion about which team is aggro and which team is defense. Usually a the first engagement starts either when the orb spawns and the team holding the center starts hitting it, and the team on the outside presses in, or someone makes a positional mistake and gets split from their team, and then sprinting on a mount to get into position works.
That said, I mostly melee as Spearmaster, who has a lot of gap-closing potential and poor "getting away" potential, so...
But Ravener is pretty good at fighting other melees, so sometimes they'll come to you if you stay near the squishies if you want to do that, or you can switch targets after an incap and just walk over to someone else at an angle they don't have a good walk-away angle from.
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Post by eji1700 on Sept 18, 2016 5:44:20 GMT 1
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Post by platyp on Sept 18, 2016 6:00:01 GMT 1
I mean, that works for a little while, but I think good players are going to be able to predict your movement and poke. Movement speed is slow in this game, slower than BLC, so it's not hard to hit someone trying to juke shots while advancing. Eventually you're going to need to use a skill to close the gap.
People playing Ranid: in what situation would you ever take the R1 rite that gives you an extra charge of the M2 blob? I've just found it so underwhelming compared to his other two R1 rites, both of which are useful. For reference, his other R1 rites are: make E (lunge) root people who are affected by Toxin (which you apply with M2 or R) and make your first stealth attack do a delayed 10 damage AoE on the target you hit. I take the latter by default because more damage is always good, but I've had scenarios when I take the root, especially when I have someone on my team like Gunner who has a long windup ability.
I don't know why I didn't start playing Ranid earlier. I gained like 600 MMR today just spamming Ranid (up to 2.5k now). This hero is crazy good. My main problems are dealing with Vanguard and kinda Freya, both of whom are just good anti-melee in general, and Pearl, because who the fuck matches well against Pearl.
Other random things about Ranid: There's a bug in place that drops the EX Q input while holding down any WASD combination involving D. This is obviously a big deal, as I will often finding myself trying and failing to active EX Q when engaging. This is basically preventing me from using EX Q at all right now, because I'm sure as hell not going to train my muscles to release D and hit EX Q then press W again, especially since this is 100% going to get patched later. Also EX M2 is not worth meter imo, but I guess it's kind of useful when an enemy is low. R is good, especially when you take the R1 root rite, but I don't think the rite that increases M1 attack speed when R is up is worth taking because the attack speed buff doesn't stack with the attack speed buffs from Space and Q, and it's pretty easy to get attack speed buffs with space and Q anyway.
Also I ran into Caphriel and Kyadytim while soloQing. Good game!
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 18, 2016 19:05:17 GMT 1
Yeah, just running toward people isn't sufficient, especially for closing the last little bit of the gap, but it'll get you pretty close. The important thing is to get close enough that they can't juke your gap closer by WASD. And once the fight starts, walking to switch targets becomes a lot more viable. I played ranid a bit, so here are my thoughts on your questions! - The root battlerite is good against a ranged-heavy team, I think. The double-spit one is good when you need improved sustain in the matchup. The stealth one tapers off a bit I think, because people eventually learn to stop just getting hit by stealth ranids.
- You can set hotkeys for EX abilities. This is how I use EX abilities. Because fuck trying to hit shift+a button when I could just hit a button. That said, the bug you mentioned may be a problem with your keyboard?
- The attack speed buff on R is good for improved sustained DPS. Ranid's attack speed self-debuffs after a few swings. But I still don't think that one is very good.
- EX M2 inflicted blind, right? That tends to be pretty useful, especially since you can do it at range. Blind the ranged DPS or healer who isn't close to the melee, and you've basically taken them out of the fight. Also, his ult is pretty bad against players who know how to deal with it, so in those circumstances energy is better spent on EX abilities and R.
Anyway, my general feeling on the Ranid is similar to BLC (where I main'd Ranid) - he's a total newbie crusher, but I think he's going to taper off a bit at higher skill levels once you start getting matched with players who know how to deal with him. In particular, "stealth, then walk up and stun someone and unload on their face" gets significantly harder to execute. In BattleRite, ranid's sustained DPS seems pretty poor compared to other melees, but his burst is higher. I still think he's going to be strong, but I think he'll be less good of a solo queue character, because he needs a teammate who can handle getting focused - Ranid can't do much about that.
You were the only Ranid Ky and I got matched against that gave us any trouble to speak of yesterday, and I'm reasonably sure we were playing off-mains. I can't remember whether we were playing Shifu and Pearl (which turned out to be a disaster), Shifu and Oldur (which was slightly less bad), or Jade and Freya, which we had some success with, when we encountered you. I remember wishing I was playing Sirius, though
I also hit 2500 yesterday (and I wish I'd played more in the first beta when it was easier to rank up)! Once the game comes out, I'd be happy to play with you as a teammate
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 18, 2016 22:03:17 GMT 1
I have the same impression you do, Caphriel . Croak is good and will remain good, but at higher levels I think he'll work best in very specific setups. Some characters have bad tools to deal with him, and capitalizing on that can be super valuable. "Cloak, walk up, stun" is too basic to work against a majority of the cast, though. I really think his EX Q is the way to win games, though. That ability is absurd. btw, the best gap closer in the game is to Yee-haw on your mount and ride straight at your opponent. Learn to unmount when you see their cast animation and you've just gotten in closer than you ever would have before. ^^
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 18, 2016 22:57:03 GMT 1
btw, the best gap closer in the game is to Yee-haw on your mount and ride straight at your opponent. Learn to unmount when you see their cast animation and you've just gotten in closer than you ever would have before. ^^ If you have a quick-casting trance this is actually really good, because they really want to shoot you off your mount
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Post by eji1700 on Sept 19, 2016 5:47:19 GMT 1
I still haven't tried ranid so my question is how committed are you once you cloak?
I've gotten away with countering the out of cloak stun, but I feel like i'm mostly just guessing and a better player could easily bait it and punish, or is that just not really an option for croak?
Oh also realizing that you can dodge his ult helped a lot.
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Post by Caphriel on Sept 19, 2016 6:26:34 GMT 1
Yeah, you can iframes the venom, and there's even a countdown bar over your head to help you time it. It's not difficult once you know to do it. So in order to get damage from his ult, he has to hit someone when their escape(s) are not just on cooldown, but on cooldown with several seconds left.
You're not really that committed once you cloak. It depends in large part on how far away you are. Cloak lasts 2.5 seconds, and has a small movespeed increase. You can take a rite to make it a large increase. If they have a trance that lasts X seconds, then you have to be less than 2.5-X seconds of walking toward them while they backpedal to be able to catch them with the cloak stun, by waiting out the trance.
So the closer you are when you cloak, the better. Best is if you're close to more than one target, especially if you're between them. In 2s, a team really can't afford to backpedal in separate directions to avoid a ranid cloak, which means they have to rely on something like landing a blind CC. Or uh... just figure one of them is going to get stunned, and plan on the other CCing the Ranid.
In DPS-heavy compositions, a reasonable counterplay to "Ranid stealth" is often to stay relatively near each other, and then if someone gets stunned you just CC/clobber the Ranid until he feels like leaving.
Now, back to answering your question... from the Ranid side, one of the great alternative uses of Stealth is to bait defensive cooldowns. Stealth when near one person, they panic-trance while you jog over to their teammate. People will often overreact pretty badly when they see a ranid stealth.
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Post by Kraetyz on Sept 19, 2016 7:09:07 GMT 1
Now, back to answering your question... from the Ranid side, one of the great alternative uses of Stealth is to bait defensive cooldowns. Stealth when near one person, they panic-trance while you jog over to their teammate. People will often overreact pretty badly when they see a ranid stealth. This is a classic fact. Q is a button that lets you automatically put enemy Counters on CD. To cloak close to your opponents and then walk off to steal orbs is a great way to be a little shit. Seriously. Don't forget the orbs.
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