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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 13:19:39 GMT 1
I always assumed the hope in all of the balance discussion threads was that Sirlin would keep an eye on them and perhaps get some sort of notion for changes if he ever decided he was going to do a V3, but if this is indeed the forum we are going to use are those discussions now moot? Or was that never the point of the discussion at all?
Additionally, why was it so easy to dismiss the concerns of people who have literally played thousands of games more than him of Yomi?
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Post by Kraetyz on Aug 29, 2016 13:26:13 GMT 1
Personally, I enjoyed (reading) the balance discussions mostly to see people's analysis of the game and how it could be made better. If I recall, Sirlin has stated he is unlikely to ever do a V3 of Yomi, and I think quite a few people had that feeling even going into discussions.
I think balance discussions can still be relevant. If we're truly insane, we could make a community errata that at least lets us play our own V3 in person.
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Post by enomus on Aug 29, 2016 17:08:54 GMT 1
Sirlin needs to finish FSFG first before ever considering anything else, and hopefully FSFG doesnt make him go bankrupt.
It's all good though we're working on Project Y
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Post by Kraetyz on Aug 29, 2016 17:45:37 GMT 1
Sirlin needs to finish FSFG first before ever considering anything else, and hopefully FSFG doesnt make him go bankrupt. It's all good though we're working on Project Y You're so dank.
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Post by scymrian on Aug 29, 2016 19:07:24 GMT 1
I've kind of always thought they were hopeless. I guess different people hope different amounts.
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Post by FraaOrolo on Aug 30, 2016 1:42:39 GMT 1
I've always enjoyed balance discussion because I think they are interesting from a theoretical game design point of view.
How about a different question, are fan character discussions pointless? I think it's really a matter of what you were trying to get out of those threads. I for one never expected sirlin to look at them if he even intends to make a V3.
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Post by scymrian on Aug 30, 2016 13:10:41 GMT 1
I wouldn't be too sure about that, Fraa. I wasn't there at the time, but from reading Sirlin's own words (in the comments) it appears that Gloria was heavily influenced by a fan design? I think v3 is very unlikely, but if you were to tell me that this was some magical world where v3 was 100% guaranteed in development, I would not rule out the possibility of fan designs being reviewed for ideas, at the very least.
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Post by banewlf on Aug 30, 2016 13:15:11 GMT 1
Quince was Lofobal's idea, as I recall.
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Redless
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better known as Redless
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Post by Redless on Aug 30, 2016 13:27:39 GMT 1
Sirlin seems to have a much higher tolerance for people's ideas in the past, I wonder what bad stuff happened to turn him into Dark Sirlin
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Post by banewlf on Aug 30, 2016 13:31:59 GMT 1
It just always depended on who you are. Pretty sure he's always liked Lofobal. But if you aren't explicitly liked by Sirlin, your ideas have exactly 0% chance of being considered.
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Post by flagrantangles on Aug 30, 2016 17:40:19 GMT 1
I have always enjoyed the balance discussions because they tend to be insightful. Analysis and/or evidence make for some intriguing reading.
As for dismissing people whose experience outweighs your own, all I can say is that it blows. The other person is basically just burning a bridge or throwing up a wall. They don't want to communicate and they're not open to it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 17:51:19 GMT 1
I mean, I'm not against the discussions, and they were interesting, but I always thought that the real hope was that some of it might trickle into Sirlin's ear and he might say "You know what, everybody and their mother who plays my game thinks that Max Anarchy is not a good move to have in it. Perhaps I might change it someday", instead of saying "You know what these motherfuckers (and their mother motherfuckers) think my game has flaws. Summon the hounds!". I guess it's just personal opinion but without the goal of actually getting anything changed they would feel a bit hollow.
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Post by vivafringe on Aug 30, 2016 18:06:12 GMT 1
I think changes to Yomi are unlikely at this point, mostly because Sirlin has moved on to other stuff. That's probably fine, honestly. This game has gotten a lot of love over the years, and I think it's improved a bunch over that time. Sure, it could probably be improved even *more*, but at some point the amount of effort you're putting in probably isn't worth the actual improvement (or, let's be honest, money) you're getting, and it's better to work on new games (I'm pretty psyched about FSFG!).
That's not to say that it's not super fun to make changelog wishlists, though.
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Post by ntillerman on Aug 31, 2016 6:59:48 GMT 1
I doubt there will ever be official changes to yomi. I think there is a decent chance (sub 50% though) that eventually there will be some sort of playable fan mod. That would be nice I think.
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Post by thehug0naut on Aug 31, 2016 11:55:22 GMT 1
I have some experience of putting together (and testing) my own mods and/or printing out fan mods for various tabletop games such as risk 2210, twilight imperium and wiz-war. Theoretically I would not have a problem taking on the duties of putting together some sort of fan mod (if we could agree some consensus changes) but what are the chances of not getting sued for distributing it?
I've never distributed my own modded materials, but I know people that do and they've had to be very careful to avoid any such issues.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 16:28:58 GMT 1
The only thing you need to avoid is graphic licenses (can't use any images owned by Sirlin), and perhaps certain terms if he has trademarked them (like "tap" from Magic has) (which he has not). Game mechanics cannot be trademarked and as long as you don't sell the copies or use any licensed images you should be fine.
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Post by Arkhan on Aug 31, 2016 17:15:26 GMT 1
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Post by flagrantangles on Aug 31, 2016 17:49:19 GMT 1
It's amusing to imagine Menelker putting on a mask and then thinking, "Now no one will recognize my half-discolored body."
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 1, 2016 11:59:40 GMT 1
I guess there are three ways a fan mod could be made:
1) An eratta sheet This has the advantage of not printing any new/replacement cards so its good for development/testing purposes but sucks for feel/awesomeness
2) Printable replacement cards I would want the new cards to fit in well with the v2 ones and this could be achieved, but pretty much requires the use of sleeves, since the rear image of the cards is owned by Sirlin. Has the disadvantage that we would require our own character art, but this could also be an advantage in some cases. 3) Printable stickers with changed speed/damage/abilities Pandemic supplied a sticker to put on the game board to permanently add the purple disease, which inspired this suggestion. Advantage is we wouldn't have to actually redesign entire cards with custom character art, simply edit the bits we wanted to edit. Obviously there is a risk of people ruining their cards which sucks, and people would require to purchase a new set of yomi if they want both the modded and un-modded version. Personally I wouldn't mind doing this, but I suspect I would be in the minority.
Having said all this, I'm unclear on what elements outside of character art and card backs would actually be non-copyable IP. i.e. does it extend to the format of the damage/speed/kd symbols?
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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 1, 2016 14:34:01 GMT 1
I think I would default to a list of errata, personally. I don't want to deface the cards in any way and I'm generally pretty alright with how the game functions. Most changes I can think of would be relatively small. Additionally, there's a certain point where you kinda have everything memorized about the character decks so I don't think the errata sheet would be all that onerous.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 1, 2016 15:59:04 GMT 1
I think I would default to a list of errata, personally. I don't want to deface the cards in any way and I'm generally pretty alright with how the game functions. Most changes I can think of would be relatively small. Additionally, there's a certain point where you kinda have everything memorized about the character decks so I don't think the errata sheet would be all that onerous. I can't fault your reasoning, and an errata sheet is the easiest thing to do in the first place anyway. I'm gonna set up some fan mod threads to start compiling a list of changes. At least I will do when I have the time/willpower. I still feel like everything is in limbo atm
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bbobjs
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Post by bbobjs on Sept 8, 2016 10:27:38 GMT 1
Sirlin seems to have a much higher tolerance for people's ideas in the past, I wonder what bad stuff happened to turn him into Dark Sirlin I can provide minor insight into this. IIRC in December of 2011 Sirlin was involved in a discussion on the Puzzle Strike forum that got massively derailed somehow. This sparked him to make hidden development boards. The one from Puzzle Strike effectively went dark with the release of the 3rd Edition (although there was a small thread about a possible expansion). I'm not a member of the Codex Development board but I know it exists (via secret conversation groups) and although I don't have evidence of a Yomi Development board, it probably exists. Basically if you weren't a member of one of these groups, you haven't been being listened to directly for years. Then the Fishbowl happened... anyone remember that shit show? I think the reaction only calcified him further. Fast forward to 2014 and you have the re-introduction of forums.sirlin.net which used a white listing system (I was already on his bad side at this point and thus not welcome). This became his actual community. The SirlinGames forums are marketed as a re-imagining of the FantasyStrike forums, but they're actually not, they're an extension of forums.sirlin.net (even uses the same forum software I believe). I think it's the noise that comes with visibility combined with the need to be visible to move product that pushes him towards seclusion.
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