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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 9, 2016 17:46:12 GMT 1
Color me intrigued! Why do you oppose discarding two cards for Point, Counterpoint? Just so you know, I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just interested in the explanation.
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Post by Bomber678 on Sept 9, 2016 18:02:36 GMT 1
Color me intrigued! Why do you oppose discarding two cards for Point, Counterpoint? Just so you know, I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just interested in the explanation. Ah, it's just too big of a nerf. Degrey wants to go low hand, and to punish him that hard for outspeeding a throw really hurts. Sure he gets one back, but the value of a random card in his deck is often slightly less than the cards he's saving in a low hand.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 10, 2016 0:26:03 GMT 1
Though at that point isn't a flat change to HP more elegant? If the problem is "DeGrey is just generally overtuned"? thehug0naut - I would recommend, if you haven't already, to state what you're trying to accomplish with these changes, overall and by character. What's the goal/problem you're trying to solve? This is a good request - I had thought about doing this before but never got round to it / was worried about the length. I'll put up some discussion for each character over the next day or so
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Post by FraaOrolo on Sept 11, 2016 18:50:26 GMT 1
Because people keep saying "Remove MHG from Aces" and that's inelegant when you could just nerf Final Arbiter directly. It's also a slight nerf to high hand DeGrey, but that's ok. DeGrey could use a tiny amount of tuning anyway. For the record I don't think DeGrey needs huge nerfs, and I strongly oppose two cards for P/CP. If MHG on aces is a problem a two damage nerf is just a nothing change. Like 4 to 6 damage impact on any single game? Maybe AA to 15 or something instead. MHG on Arbiter equates to less damage on average than people give it credit for. Unless DeGrey has basically no cards in hand (which is risky if he's not straight up killing you) than I wouldn't expect arbiter to be getting 5 damage off MHG. IMO if you think DeGrey does too much damage the answer is Arbiter to 18 and throws to 7. However that's just me. Disclaimer: I think that if you take too much base damage off of Arbiter you'll force DeGrey to be played as top deck DeGrey and I think everyone agrees that top deck DeGrey is infuriating to play against. You really just want to nerf him enough that he wants to play with a higher hand count for consistency. Perhaps even take damage off other non ace things to force him to block more so he can power up for another Arbiter.
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Post by FraaOrolo on Sept 11, 2016 19:12:11 GMT 1
RE vs and vs The problem is how bad their throws are. Uncounterable Poker flourish I think would skew his other MUs against characters with counters too much while only kinda fixing the Arg MU. Making Lums throws stronger would probably fix the MU in better ways. Perhaps make lums throws better across the board if you pump them. +1 damage per pump on all of them would be quite the buff imo. If you do a major buff to just his 10 then the MU isn't fixed, you rely too much on drawing the 10s and hitting with them. Though leaving it in it's "slightly better than the other throws" position is probably good. Not sure if rank +4 (+3) damage throws would be too much for his other MUs though, it has a reasonable chance of wrecking other characters. Perhaps make the final pump of a throw do more than the other pumps? I don't know how you'd write that on a card but it would mean fully pumping the throw is way better than just a couple pumps. Oni really has the same problem as lum but does have better answers earlier in the game. However things run downhill kinda fast because getting any amount of damage out of his throws costs so many cards that Arg can practically block for free against low hand Oni. I'm skeptical here about just buffing the 10 throw but even more so. 10 is already an important card to find in this MU because it's your best dodge followup. Might be better to put the buffed throw on his 9. Especially if you're going to give Oni access to KD off this throw. Oni is rude with his mixups and that's why it's good that he rarely gets them. If you make the buffed throw that KDs on his 9 then he doesn't get "extra" instances of KD. Really Oni doesn't need KD against Arg, just less card intensive damage off of throws. Perhaps make 9 throw do 15 dmg straight, no pumps and KD. Though after typing that number it seems a bit high. But the point is he needs a decent throw his can reasonably use on lower hand. There's my 2 cents. They need more efficient throws (in some way or another) and don't put too much into a singular card or else that doesn't really fix the MU.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 12, 2016 10:32:13 GMT 1
RE vs and vs The problem is how bad their throws are. Uncounterable Poker flourish I think would skew his other MUs against characters with counters too much while only kinda fixing the Arg MU. Making Lums throws stronger would probably fix the MU in better ways. Perhaps make lums throws better across the board if you pump them. +1 damage per pump on all of them would be quite the buff imo. If you do a major buff to just his 10 then the MU isn't fixed, you rely too much on drawing the 10s and hitting with them. Though leaving it in it's "slightly better than the other throws" position is probably good. Not sure if rank +4 (+3) damage throws would be too much for his other MUs though, it has a reasonable chance of wrecking other characters. Perhaps make the final pump of a throw do more than the other pumps? I don't know how you'd write that on a card but it would mean fully pumping the throw is way better than just a couple pumps. Oni really has the same problem as lum but does have better answers earlier in the game. However things run downhill kinda fast because getting any amount of damage out of his throws costs so many cards that Arg can practically block for free against low hand Oni. I'm skeptical here about just buffing the 10 throw but even more so. 10 is already an important card to find in this MU because it's your best dodge followup. Might be better to put the buffed throw on his 9. Especially if you're going to give Oni access to KD off this throw. Oni is rude with his mixups and that's why it's good that he rarely gets them. If you make the buffed throw that KDs on his 9 then he doesn't get "extra" instances of KD. Really Oni doesn't need KD against Arg, just less card intensive damage off of throws. Perhaps make 9 throw do 15 dmg straight, no pumps and KD. Though after typing that number it seems a bit high. But the point is he needs a decent throw his can reasonably use on lower hand. There's my 2 cents. They need more efficient throws (in some way or another) and don't put too much into a singular card or else that doesn't really fix the MU. Thanks FraaOrolo , I really value your input here. I agree about uncounterable poker flourish not really being the answer for Lum. Your suggestion about the final pump doing more damage could be implemented fairly card efficiently as a new innate. Though Roll the Dice already means he has a lot of text on his character card. We could call it something like "All In" to continue the poker theme and it could make his throws do +3 damage when fully pumped. I'm not sure about his 6 throw getting the damage boost though, its already so fast it maybe should just stay at 15 damage max. "Your 8, 9 and 10 throws do +3 damage when fully pumped" would maybe suffice. Regarding Oni, I love the idea of making "Final Authrowity" a real thing! I agree 15 might be a little high, but maybe about 13 (equivalent to a single pump) might work ok.
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LK4O4
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Post by LK4O4 on Sept 12, 2016 18:38:28 GMT 1
So my main issues with DeGrey are that 1) he heals way too much life from TR and 2) even though his "thing" is dealing lots of damage, I still think he deals slightly too much damage. An LK DeGrey changelog would probably be something like TR heals 8, AA deals 17, throws deal 7. (I would leave his starting life alone, since that's not really the problem.)
I guess changing his throw damage changes a lot of cards though, if we're deciding that we care about that.
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LK4O4
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Post by LK4O4 on Sept 12, 2016 18:55:23 GMT 1
Oh, and I've stated my suggested Gloria change before:
Healing Sphere falls off "if you are knocked down or were thrown this turn." This does two things. 1) It fixes the bug where clashing Gloria's J with a KD move (such as Crash Bomb) doesn't remove the Sphere as it should (slight nerf) and 2) it allows Gloria to keep her Sphere attached if she doesn't have the cards to heal (slight buff).
You'll find that I tend to care a lot about fixing "buggy" interactions (and once interactions make sense, things can always be rebalanced afterwards).
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 12, 2016 21:51:45 GMT 1
So my main issues with DeGrey are that 1) he heals way too much life from TR and 2) even though his "thing" is dealing lots of damage, I still think he deals slightly too much damage. An LK DeGrey changelog would probably be something like TR heals 8, AA deals 17, throws deal 7. (I would leave his starting life alone, since that's not really the problem.) I guess changing his throw damage changes a lot of cards though, if we're deciding that we care about that. We had previously been debating between 18 or 15/16 damage for his AA so maybe 17 is the right choice since it falls somewhere in between. I've amended the list with this for now. I kind of agree about the throw damage nerf over the HP nerf now, particularly with the suggestion of nerfing TR (which I quite like), but I've been trying to avoid large numbers of cards changed (at least for now) so I'm reluctant to put it in at the moment. I think ideally I'd maybe nerf DeGrey, Geiger and Troq's throw damage to 7 (so Troq sits just below Rook at 100% hyuk), while buffing Menelkers throws to 7 damage (or even 8!).
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 12, 2016 21:58:06 GMT 1
Oh, and I've stated my suggested Gloria change before: Healing Sphere falls off "if you are knocked down or were thrown this turn." This does two things. 1) It fixes the bug where clashing Gloria's J with a KD move (such as Crash Bomb) doesn't remove the Sphere as it should (slight nerf) and 2) it allows Gloria to keep her Sphere attached if she doesn't have the cards to heal (slight buff). You'll find that I tend to care a lot about fixing "buggy" interactions (and once interactions make sense, things can always be rebalanced afterwards). I like this suggestion, but is the whole point of healing sphere not meant to be she has to heal to keep it going? The alternative would be to not allow J to return if she gets knocked down, but I guess that's probably worse for Gloria than your suggestion.
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LK4O4
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Post by LK4O4 on Sept 12, 2016 22:34:10 GMT 1
Oh, and I've stated my suggested Gloria change before: Healing Sphere falls off "if you are knocked down or were thrown this turn." This does two things. 1) It fixes the bug where clashing Gloria's J with a KD move (such as Crash Bomb) doesn't remove the Sphere as it should (slight nerf) and 2) it allows Gloria to keep her Sphere attached if she doesn't have the cards to heal (slight buff). You'll find that I tend to care a lot about fixing "buggy" interactions (and once interactions make sense, things can always be rebalanced afterwards). I like this suggestion, but is the whole point of healing sphere not meant to be she has to heal to keep it going? The alternative would be to not allow J to return if she gets knocked down, but I guess that's probably worse for Gloria than your suggestion. Note that if she doesn't heal, she still doesn't draw a card and doesn't get any benefit. The only thing that changes is that the Sphere doesn't fall off unless the opponent makes it fall off.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 12, 2016 23:40:21 GMT 1
I like this suggestion, but is the whole point of healing sphere not meant to be she has to heal to keep it going? The alternative would be to not allow J to return if she gets knocked down, but I guess that's probably worse for Gloria than your suggestion. Note that if she doesn't heal, she still doesn't draw a card and doesn't get any benefit. The only thing that changes is that the Sphere doesn't fall off unless the opponent makes it fall off. Ok yes that does seem potentially fine then I think. The current version is typically removed by KD anyway (except by your crash bomb example). Will add it
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Post by hamvvar on Sept 13, 2016 2:21:05 GMT 1
so this version of Oni no longer has his Final Authority ability?
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Post by Bomber678 on Sept 13, 2016 2:37:43 GMT 1
Also yes the only change I support to Menelker is making his throws 7 damage. I haven't heard any other changes to him that I like. My reasons vary as to why, but the most common suggestion is "give him more health" which I strongly oppose for flavour reasons.
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Post by feathers on Sept 13, 2016 3:12:30 GMT 1
I feel that removing Healing Sphere's healing requirement removes a strategic part of the Gloria game. As it stands now Gloria needs to make sure she has a suitably large and non-hearts hand before putting HS up to maximize its up time. If the only non-hearts cards in hand was a J and a Q, in normal circumstances a Gloria would conserve those valuable cards rather then go for that 4 hp (barring certain hA in discard situations), but with one or two healing spheres (especially non-hearts ones) up she has to weigh the pros and cons of letting the spheres drop or discarding valuable cards if she haven't J healed that turn. This no-heal change gives the ability more of a "get one play one" vibe.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 8:00:34 GMT 1
so this version of Oni no longer has his Final Authority ability? No no he still has it, just also has a card efficient throw with KD on the other side, so he still only has 4 cards that grant him KD
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 8:04:02 GMT 1
Also yes the only change I support to Menelker is making his throws 7 damage. I haven't heard any other changes to him that I like. My reasons vary as to why, but the most common suggestion is "give him more health" which I strongly oppose for flavour reasons. I've come round to this way of thinking somehow lol. 7 damage throws would be great for his vibe of "dark powerful Grave, half way to the grave". It's annoying how many cards that changes though
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 8:05:35 GMT 1
I feel that removing Healing Sphere's healing requirement removes a strategic part of the Gloria game. As it stands now Gloria needs to make sure she has a suitably large and non-hearts hand before putting HS up to maximize its up time. If the only non-hearts cards in hand was a J and a Q, in normal circumstances a Gloria would conserve those valuable cards rather then go for that 4 hp (barring certain hA in discard situations), but with one or two healing spheres (especially non-hearts ones) up she has to weigh the pros and cons of letting the spheres drop or discarding valuable cards if she haven't J healed that turn. This no-heal change gives the ability more of a "get one play one" vibe. Yeah this is what I was worried about with the change as suggested. Maybe there is another way to fix the weird interaction with Zane's K and Gloria's J
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Post by Bomber678 on Sept 13, 2016 8:44:52 GMT 1
Also yes the only change I support to Menelker is making his throws 7 damage. I haven't heard any other changes to him that I like. My reasons vary as to why, but the most common suggestion is "give him more health" which I strongly oppose for flavour reasons. I've come round to this way of thinking somehow lol. 7 damage throws would be great for his vibe of "dark powerful Grave, half way to the grave". It's annoying how many cards that changes though Agreed, but I think it's a necessary change. His throws are simply not scary, except for Bonecracker.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 9:16:16 GMT 1
I've come round to this way of thinking somehow lol. 7 damage throws would be great for his vibe of "dark powerful Grave, half way to the grave". It's annoying how many cards that changes though Agreed, but I think it's a necessary change. His throws are simply not scary, except for Bonecracker. Hmmmm. Is adding one damage enough to make them scary? Maybe they should go to 8 damage for dark midori reasons? Also, if we're going down the road of changing throw damage we may aswell look at other characters in need of a throw damage nerf. DeGrey being at the top of the list imo.
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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 13, 2016 12:43:58 GMT 1
I don't think Menelker's throws need to do more damage at all, but I think if they're going to increase, they should only increase to 7. Menelker is able to control his hand a bit more than other characters since he can power up for black face cards which means that he can have reasonable access to combo from throw into Aces, a King, or a Jack. Menelker already has high damage potential, I don't think we need to give him much more, if any at all.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 13, 2016 13:04:42 GMT 1
Menelker only has 5 throws anyway, and one of them deals 55 damage
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 13, 2016 13:06:26 GMT 1
Not a fan of changing throw damage unless everyone wants all the cards redone. Otherwise I'd buff all throw damage
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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 13, 2016 13:40:08 GMT 1
Not a fan of changing throw damage unless everyone wants all the cards redone. Otherwise I'd buff all throw damage CMB → ∞ damage.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 13, 2016 14:06:13 GMT 1
Not a fan of changing throw damage unless everyone wants all the cards redone. Otherwise I'd buff all throw damage CMB → ∞ damage. Well it'd probably be just Face Cards/Normal Throws since Zane seems to have changed the meta of early game throws. (12+ Base damage usually) I like the idea of stronger early game throws. Its just not a realistic possibility, unless this is a dream changelog. (It is.)
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 14:09:54 GMT 1
Not a fan of changing throw damage unless everyone wants all the cards redone. Otherwise I'd buff all throw damage CMB → ∞ damage. Dat balance imo
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 13, 2016 14:39:20 GMT 1
I'm bored. I'd rather not have the cards reprinted for this though.
Base Throw Tiers
12 Rook
11 Troq (FULL BLOCKS)
10 Midori Troq (1 Block)
9 Persephone Troq (Base)
8 DeGrey Geiger Grave Jaina Menelker Quince Vendetta
7 BBB Gwen Valerie
6 Argagarg Gloria Setsuki Zane
Lum can now pump 4 times instead of 3 times.
Onimaru's base pumps are now +5.
Rook Q Throw side Now a 2 CP linker. Improves late game throw damage.
K 16
Lum Extra Juice 10 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 (26 instead of 22)
Persephone K 10
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 13, 2016 22:44:53 GMT 1
I'm bored. I'd rather not have the cards reprinted for this though. Base Throw Tiers 12 Rook 11 Troq (FULL BLOCKS) 10 Midori Troq (1 Block) 9 Persephone Troq (Base) 8 DeGrey Geiger Grave Jaina Menelker Quince Vendetta 7 BBB Gwen Valerie 6 Argagarg Gloria Setsuki Zane Lum can now pump 4 times instead of 3 times. Onimaru's base pumps are now +5. Rook Q Throw side Now a 2 CP linker. Improves late game throw damage. K 16 Lum Extra Juice 10 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 (26 instead of 22) Persephone K 10 So the point of this changeset is to make throws much scarier to make up for Zane throws being so good? I especially like Troq full hyuk being one damage below Rook normals
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 14, 2016 3:34:42 GMT 1
Its to make turn 1 more interesting all around lol.
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