The Living Changelog - Yomi "Double Take"
Sept 6, 2016 14:20:35 GMT 1
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 6, 2016 14:20:35 GMT 1
I think us yomi fans should have a living list of balance changes designed by the community, for the community, so we can have fun debating, testing and tweaking the game we love. This thread is my attempt at starting such a list, based on a bunch of the changes suggested on the old site.
I propose we develop several tiers of changes, starting from a minimal set of balance tweaks and working up to potential fan characters or other such things. I've kind of settled on a tier naming scheme that follows the United States Armed Forces DEFCON levels, partly because I like the parallel idea of levels of "readiness" and also because of the snazzy operation names they use. Feel free to tell me the name is lame and you hate it if that's how you feel
The first level after normal v2 (which would be DEFCON5) would be DEFCON4, apparently called "Double Take" which sounds pleasantly sequel-y The idea here would be to perform a small number of changes per character to try and address the variation is power levels across the cast and reduce the severity of bad matchups.
Yomi "Double Take"
Grave
No changes
Grave is pretty solid overall so I don't see much I would change. Imo he is one of several good yardsticks in the game.
Jaina
Slow J "Charged Shot" → Now gives knockdown
Jaina is fairly block starved, since her blocks are also all her good throws, her abilities and her only source of knockdown. Giving slow J knockdown gives her a more card efficient way to punish throw heavy ranges and also to follow up her dodges, which are definitely lacking without her aces. Jaina is also excellent at cross-ups since she can rebuy her normals. This change alone is pretty huge for her.
7* "Unstable Power" → Swapped with 10* "Smoldering Embers"
This change has been heavily requested by @juushichi for a long time. It opens up Jaina's 7-throw to be used in more matches, since she can 7 throw AND still use unstable power, her most powerful ability. It seems minor but will help a huge amount vs Arg for example. The only issue might be that she now doesn't want to block with 7s OR 10s.
Midori
10* “Glimpse of the Dragon” → Also draws a card
This change was suggested by @leontes, and is basically there to address the huge damage Glimpsing can do to Midori's hand. This should mean he use his glimpses more readily and on a smaller hand. It should also indirectly help his inconsistency by increasing his card flow.
2* "Dragon Form" → When you enter dragon form fetch one non-joker card from the discard
Also suggested by @leontes. This change builds on the glimpse change above, allowing Midori to more readily use his dragon cards (particularly his precious dQ) early to defend himself, since he's guaranteed to get one back if/when he enters dragon form.
Setsuki
7* (“Bag of Tricks”) → Cannot return 7s from discard
This change is one I'm not totally convinced on yet, but I think Sets needs some kind of nerf to her reliably oppressive gameplan and this seems a reasonable way to do it.
Rook
3* “Entangling Vines” → "When you block an attack or Joker with this card, take no block damage, knock down the opponent and hit them for 5 damage. Next turn your attacks and throws are 3 speed faster, to a minimum of 1.0."
This seemingly minor change has major ramifications for Rook; it allows him to actually punish a gold burst, which he has no way of doing at present AND it lets him use his 3 block to end range vs BBB or temporal distortion vs Geiger (with the Geiger change proposed below). This really helps boost him in his two worst matchups.
5* “Stone Wall” → "This block hits the opponent for the same damage as their revealed attack."
Similarly to his changed 3*, this allows Rook to 5-block out of range and to end temporal distortion. This version as written doesn't effect gold bursts but that could change if its desirable.
DeGrey
HP → 85
DeGrey is widely considered overtuned. He subverts the usual rules of hand size advantage for extra damage and has some extremely good options. He straight up just doesn't merit 90HP with all of that good stuff.
4* "Troublesome Rhetoric"→ "Choose attack, block, throw or dodge. If the opponent combat-reveals that option this turn, gain 8 life."
This was requested by LK4O4 to help the Gloria matchup specifically. I know nothing about this matchup, but DeGrey gaining more than a single overdose is apparently brutal for the hopeful healer, particularly when coupled with the burst DeGrammage he deals.
AA "Final Arbiter" → 17(2) damage
Degrey deals a bit too much damage. A nerf to his AA damage is a way to reduce his output without changing his Moral High Ground back to v1, where it only boosted special attacks.
Valerie
No changes?
The question mark is because I'm not sure what we should do with Valerie. A lot of people dislike her K but so far there hasn't been a good suggestion of what to do with it.
Geiger
4* ”Temporal Distortion” → Ends on any hit
This change is in my opinion, desperately needed to nerf what is unarguably the most powerful ability in the game. Any character can now can use gold burst to knock him out of TD (Quince is now MUCH happier), while Rook can make better use of his slightly tweaked special blocks.
Lum
Innate → New Ability "All In": "After you win combat with a throw, if your throw was fully pumped,you may pump one additional time for 0 damage. If you do, knock down the opponent."
This one is actually one of my own devising, inspired by FraaOrolo 's suggestion. Lum really struggles to deal with DeGrey and Argagarg due to his poor throws. This new ability potentially gives all of his throws knockdown, but only when he spends a lot of cards. This slightly revised version is more elegant than my first attempt. I still think the idea is pretty sound.
Argagarg
A* "Bubble Shield" → "If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn and prevents the opponent gaining life. When you get hit by an attack or throw, take no damage, end combat, and discard this."
This was suggested by madking to specifically deal with the Gloria matchup, which is Args worst matchup. It means Gloria is actually put on a clock if Arg successfully ace-blocks.
Quince
No changes
I think Quince is pretty much where he needs to be. The boost he gets from the nerf to Geiger's temporal distortion should hopefully make that particular matchup more winnable.
Onimaru
9 Throw → Named throw "Final Authrowity" 9.2 speed, 13 damage + KD
Onimaru shares two terrible matchups with Lum (Arg and DeGrey). Non-coincidentally both Lum and Oni deal no knockdown on throw and focus on attacks to deal the bulk of their damage. This change was suggested by FraaOrolo and I think does well to address Oni's weakness in both matchups. Its a really nice balance point that it restricts his access to knockdown to just on his 9s. The damage being 13 means its equivalent to a single pump on his old 9. I think something of this magnitude is merited given that FA is such a powerful ability.
Troq
J* “Troq Armor” → Removed
Troq is more or less considered the best character in the game, in no small part to his godlike face cards. I personally quite dislike that this ability is essentially just copied from "General's Armor". I belive it was originally aimed at helping Troq vs BBB. However he has dodges, a 1.0 speed AA and his 0.8 speed Q to help him beat the bot. This way the card is still a pretty strong neutral button, and notably ties with BBB's Q, but it no longer takes a dump on Zane's vortex which should help that matchup somewhat.
10* “War Stomp” → "If you and your opponent are not knocked down, knock down the opponent, draw a card and the opponent discards a card."
Some kind of nerf to Troq's 10* is widely regarded as essential. This change limits its effect to once per turn which should prevent him forcing a no card situation.
OR
10* “War Stomp” → "If you're not knocked down, knock down the opponent and draw a card."
This is an alternative version of War Stomp that can still be played multiple times per turn but no longer forces a discard.
Bal-Bas-Beta
K “Extensor Grab” → Gains K* Combat reveal ability: “When this card hits the opponent, return it to your hand”
BBB's Ks are vital to his gameplan, so being stuck with only one K that he needs to use to get to range is really balls for the robot. I think this change should give him a fair consistency boost without making him too powerful.
Menelker
No changes
I think the deathstrike dragon is probably positioned well enough that with a few nerfs to the top tier he should probably be fine as is. He could perhaps do with 7 damage throws, but this changes too many cards to be worth it.
Persephone
No Changes
Persphone may need a slight HP boost or a slight damage boost, however for now I'm sticking to no changes.
Gloria
No Changes
LK4O4 specifically requested a change for healing spheres to end on knockdown as opposed to not healing (in order to fix a weird interaction with J and Zane's K), but I think on balance this change gets rid of some of the flavour and gameplay behind Healing Sphere. So for now I'm sticking with no changes.
Gwen
AAA “Dreadlands Portal” → Now a 2 (or 3?) combo point Starter
I really don't know what Gwen actually needs, since she doesn't often get played. However, this change caught my eye as it makes her AAA a dark mirror of her sister's Sun & Moon, which I think is great flavour.
Vendetta
No changes
I'm kind of in favour of testing a fairly major rework of Ven where his Wall Dive Loop vortex becomes his ace, and his ex power destiny card (perhaps without the ability) becomes his K. However I'm trying to keep this list "on theme" as minimal changes, so I'm going to leave him at "no change" for now.
Zane
Innate "Shenanigans" → Now triggers before opponent facedown
It's always seemed like an oversight to me that Shenanigans triggers after the opponent plays a facedown. This change helps give his opponent more information to use for blue bursting, which makes decision more interesting and useful.
Innate "Meaty Attacks" → "While your opponent is knocked down, your normal attacks are speed 1.0, but do not benefit from normal draw."
Zane's vortex is low risk, high efficiency and highly sustainable. Imo this is because he gets normal draw *and* shenanigans, meaning he only needs to use a net of 2 cards to get up to 34 damage. This change means it requires at least 3 cards for his most damage efficient combos, unless he is in neutral and takes a big risk (which is very flavourful).
AAAA “Maximum Anarchy” → 0.3 speed, 39(3) damage
Max Anarchy is probably the most contentious move in the game. Being 50 damage AND 0.0 speed it steps all over nearly every character in the game. Keeping it faster than TPoS is important for his Grave matchup according to those in the know, but now many characters can now outspeed it with their 0.0 or 0.2 speed dragon punches and/or supers.
AA “Slipstream Phase” → 1.3 speed
Changes to his AA are free since we want to change AAAA. I think 1.3 is more flavourful for Zane. He hardly plays it raw anyway.
I propose we develop several tiers of changes, starting from a minimal set of balance tweaks and working up to potential fan characters or other such things. I've kind of settled on a tier naming scheme that follows the United States Armed Forces DEFCON levels, partly because I like the parallel idea of levels of "readiness" and also because of the snazzy operation names they use. Feel free to tell me the name is lame and you hate it if that's how you feel
The first level after normal v2 (which would be DEFCON5) would be DEFCON4, apparently called "Double Take" which sounds pleasantly sequel-y The idea here would be to perform a small number of changes per character to try and address the variation is power levels across the cast and reduce the severity of bad matchups.
Yomi "Double Take"
Grave
No changes
Grave is pretty solid overall so I don't see much I would change. Imo he is one of several good yardsticks in the game.
Jaina
Slow J "Charged Shot" → Now gives knockdown
Jaina is fairly block starved, since her blocks are also all her good throws, her abilities and her only source of knockdown. Giving slow J knockdown gives her a more card efficient way to punish throw heavy ranges and also to follow up her dodges, which are definitely lacking without her aces. Jaina is also excellent at cross-ups since she can rebuy her normals. This change alone is pretty huge for her.
7* "Unstable Power" → Swapped with 10* "Smoldering Embers"
This change has been heavily requested by @juushichi for a long time. It opens up Jaina's 7-throw to be used in more matches, since she can 7 throw AND still use unstable power, her most powerful ability. It seems minor but will help a huge amount vs Arg for example. The only issue might be that she now doesn't want to block with 7s OR 10s.
Midori
10* “Glimpse of the Dragon” → Also draws a card
This change was suggested by @leontes, and is basically there to address the huge damage Glimpsing can do to Midori's hand. This should mean he use his glimpses more readily and on a smaller hand. It should also indirectly help his inconsistency by increasing his card flow.
2* "Dragon Form" → When you enter dragon form fetch one non-joker card from the discard
Also suggested by @leontes. This change builds on the glimpse change above, allowing Midori to more readily use his dragon cards (particularly his precious dQ) early to defend himself, since he's guaranteed to get one back if/when he enters dragon form.
Setsuki
7* (“Bag of Tricks”) → Cannot return 7s from discard
This change is one I'm not totally convinced on yet, but I think Sets needs some kind of nerf to her reliably oppressive gameplan and this seems a reasonable way to do it.
Rook
3* “Entangling Vines” → "When you block an attack or Joker with this card, take no block damage, knock down the opponent and hit them for 5 damage. Next turn your attacks and throws are 3 speed faster, to a minimum of 1.0."
This seemingly minor change has major ramifications for Rook; it allows him to actually punish a gold burst, which he has no way of doing at present AND it lets him use his 3 block to end range vs BBB or temporal distortion vs Geiger (with the Geiger change proposed below). This really helps boost him in his two worst matchups.
5* “Stone Wall” → "This block hits the opponent for the same damage as their revealed attack."
Similarly to his changed 3*, this allows Rook to 5-block out of range and to end temporal distortion. This version as written doesn't effect gold bursts but that could change if its desirable.
DeGrey
HP → 85
DeGrey is widely considered overtuned. He subverts the usual rules of hand size advantage for extra damage and has some extremely good options. He straight up just doesn't merit 90HP with all of that good stuff.
4* "Troublesome Rhetoric"→ "Choose attack, block, throw or dodge. If the opponent combat-reveals that option this turn, gain 8 life."
This was requested by LK4O4 to help the Gloria matchup specifically. I know nothing about this matchup, but DeGrey gaining more than a single overdose is apparently brutal for the hopeful healer, particularly when coupled with the burst DeGrammage he deals.
AA "Final Arbiter" → 17(2) damage
Degrey deals a bit too much damage. A nerf to his AA damage is a way to reduce his output without changing his Moral High Ground back to v1, where it only boosted special attacks.
Valerie
No changes?
The question mark is because I'm not sure what we should do with Valerie. A lot of people dislike her K but so far there hasn't been a good suggestion of what to do with it.
Geiger
4* ”Temporal Distortion” → Ends on any hit
This change is in my opinion, desperately needed to nerf what is unarguably the most powerful ability in the game. Any character can now can use gold burst to knock him out of TD (Quince is now MUCH happier), while Rook can make better use of his slightly tweaked special blocks.
Lum
Innate → New Ability "All In": "After you win combat with a throw, if your throw was fully pumped,
This one is actually one of my own devising, inspired by FraaOrolo 's suggestion. Lum really struggles to deal with DeGrey and Argagarg due to his poor throws. This new ability potentially gives all of his throws knockdown, but only when he spends a lot of cards. This slightly revised version is more elegant than my first attempt. I still think the idea is pretty sound.
Argagarg
A* "Bubble Shield" → "If this blocks an attack or Joker, draw a card and this gets: Ongoing. Your Hex of Murkwood deals an extra 2 damage per turn and prevents the opponent gaining life. When you get hit by an attack or throw, take no damage, end combat, and discard this."
This was suggested by madking to specifically deal with the Gloria matchup, which is Args worst matchup. It means Gloria is actually put on a clock if Arg successfully ace-blocks.
Quince
No changes
I think Quince is pretty much where he needs to be. The boost he gets from the nerf to Geiger's temporal distortion should hopefully make that particular matchup more winnable.
Onimaru
9 Throw → Named throw "Final Authrowity" 9.2 speed, 13 damage + KD
Onimaru shares two terrible matchups with Lum (Arg and DeGrey). Non-coincidentally both Lum and Oni deal no knockdown on throw and focus on attacks to deal the bulk of their damage. This change was suggested by FraaOrolo and I think does well to address Oni's weakness in both matchups. Its a really nice balance point that it restricts his access to knockdown to just on his 9s. The damage being 13 means its equivalent to a single pump on his old 9. I think something of this magnitude is merited given that FA is such a powerful ability.
Troq
J* “Troq Armor” → Removed
Troq is more or less considered the best character in the game, in no small part to his godlike face cards. I personally quite dislike that this ability is essentially just copied from "General's Armor". I belive it was originally aimed at helping Troq vs BBB. However he has dodges, a 1.0 speed AA and his 0.8 speed Q to help him beat the bot. This way the card is still a pretty strong neutral button, and notably ties with BBB's Q, but it no longer takes a dump on Zane's vortex which should help that matchup somewhat.
10* “War Stomp” → "If you and your opponent are not knocked down, knock down the opponent, draw a card and the opponent discards a card."
Some kind of nerf to Troq's 10* is widely regarded as essential. This change limits its effect to once per turn which should prevent him forcing a no card situation.
OR
10* “War Stomp” → "If you're not knocked down, knock down the opponent and draw a card."
This is an alternative version of War Stomp that can still be played multiple times per turn but no longer forces a discard.
Bal-Bas-Beta
K “Extensor Grab” → Gains K* Combat reveal ability: “When this card hits the opponent, return it to your hand”
BBB's Ks are vital to his gameplan, so being stuck with only one K that he needs to use to get to range is really balls for the robot. I think this change should give him a fair consistency boost without making him too powerful.
Menelker
No changes
I think the deathstrike dragon is probably positioned well enough that with a few nerfs to the top tier he should probably be fine as is. He could perhaps do with 7 damage throws, but this changes too many cards to be worth it.
Persephone
No Changes
Persphone may need a slight HP boost or a slight damage boost, however for now I'm sticking to no changes.
Gloria
No Changes
LK4O4 specifically requested a change for healing spheres to end on knockdown as opposed to not healing (in order to fix a weird interaction with J and Zane's K), but I think on balance this change gets rid of some of the flavour and gameplay behind Healing Sphere. So for now I'm sticking with no changes.
Gwen
AAA “Dreadlands Portal” → Now a 2 (or 3?) combo point Starter
I really don't know what Gwen actually needs, since she doesn't often get played. However, this change caught my eye as it makes her AAA a dark mirror of her sister's Sun & Moon, which I think is great flavour.
Vendetta
No changes
I'm kind of in favour of testing a fairly major rework of Ven where his Wall Dive Loop vortex becomes his ace, and his ex power destiny card (perhaps without the ability) becomes his K. However I'm trying to keep this list "on theme" as minimal changes, so I'm going to leave him at "no change" for now.
Zane
Innate "Shenanigans" → Now triggers before opponent facedown
It's always seemed like an oversight to me that Shenanigans triggers after the opponent plays a facedown. This change helps give his opponent more information to use for blue bursting, which makes decision more interesting and useful.
Innate "Meaty Attacks" → "While your opponent is knocked down, your normal attacks are speed 1.0, but do not benefit from normal draw."
Zane's vortex is low risk, high efficiency and highly sustainable. Imo this is because he gets normal draw *and* shenanigans, meaning he only needs to use a net of 2 cards to get up to 34 damage. This change means it requires at least 3 cards for his most damage efficient combos, unless he is in neutral and takes a big risk (which is very flavourful).
AAAA “Maximum Anarchy” → 0.3 speed, 39(3) damage
Max Anarchy is probably the most contentious move in the game. Being 50 damage AND 0.0 speed it steps all over nearly every character in the game. Keeping it faster than TPoS is important for his Grave matchup according to those in the know, but now many characters can now outspeed it with their 0.0 or 0.2 speed dragon punches and/or supers.
AA “Slipstream Phase” → 1.3 speed
Changes to his AA are free since we want to change AAAA. I think 1.3 is more flavourful for Zane. He hardly plays it raw anyway.