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Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 28, 2016 2:16:13 GMT 1
Hey all, With the 19XX: Rebel 1 event drawing to a close, and Jonny D Jonny Jonny D D and Fivec squaring off on top of the ceremonial volcano I've designed for exclusively this purpose (HYPE), I think it's a good time to start gathering feedback from those who participated in the event. Some things I'm specifically interested in: 1. Most Importantly, did you enjoy the format (in the sense of playing standard CP with DeGrey/Geiger/Troq/Zane banned)? 2. Did you have any issues with the way the tournament was run (specifically around DQ/advancement decisions, but also scheduling convos, other stuff)? 3. Anything you would change about the banned character list? 4. Anything you would change about the tournament format (Double-elimination, First to four matches)? If there was something you thought worked well, or something that didn't, I'd be happy to hear it. If you'd rather not post commentary publicly for whatever reason, feel free to message me privately, of course. *** Congrats!
Congratulations to 19XX: Rebel 1 champion fivec! Undisputed Setsuki lord, and the proud recipient of two fabulous prizes! First, filthy lucre in the form of something up to $20 on Steam or from some other online retailer. Finally, he also has the honour of choosing the official "word" of the next 19XX event (i.e. 19XX: Something 2). Shout outs to runner up "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D for making an incredible run, and earning himself the 2nd place spot! While I cannot grant you any fabulous prizes, I want to take a moment to congratulate you on some phenomenal play. You should absolutely be proud of the amount of asses you kicked in this event! Additional shoutouts to Top 8!3rd place - bob199 4th place - @mastrblastr 5th/6th place - @fluffiness and @legion 7th/8th place - @diemydarling and @mallorean_thug Thanks to everyone for participating! I hope everyone enjoyed the experience of this particular format. If you want to give kudos to any of your fellow participants, I encourage you to do so! If you have any comments on the format, or any aspect of the event, please feel free to use this thread to suggest improvements or to discuss what worked for you/what didn't. I'm planning to make this a regular event. Finally, some summary stats!
Total games played: 418 (ed: let's make this 420 next time okay?) Characters Played in Order of PopularityCharacter / Games Played / % of All Games 141 / 17% 85 / 10% 81 / 10% 71 / 8% 62 / 7% 54 / 6% 54 / 6% 48 / 6% 47 / 6% 45 / 5% 45 / 5% 32 / 4% 25 / 3% 20 / 2% 16 / 2% 10 / 1% Characters Played in Order of Win % Character / Win % 60% 57% 57% 56% 53% 49% 48% 48% 46% 46% 45% 44% 44% 44% 38% 30% Make of that what you will!
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 28, 2016 2:46:24 GMT 1
1. I feel like it made the meta more interesting. I think it'd be fun to rotate who's banned in 19xx. Like say if Grave/Setsuki/Arg were overused in 19xx, you could have 18xx where those 3 + are banned and 3+ are brought back. 2. Absolutely nothing. Everything for me ran smoothly. 3. See #1. 4. No. Even in 19xx I couldn't make Jaina work. But yeah I think keeping or slightly changing who is banned/not banned would make it interesting. Glad to not see so many Troq/Geiger/Zane Carousels.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 28, 2016 10:50:14 GMT 1
1. 19XX was super enjoyable to both play in and watch. I've loved seeing and hearing about a much larger variety of matchups than the usual Zane/Troq/Geiger carousel. Imo knowing that a 4 match Zane blowout isn't on the cards is a huge psychological improvement to the game.
2. For the short time I was in the event it seemed very slick. No issues there.
3. Hmmm its kind of hard to figure out what changes I would make to the ban list. Imo Zane 100% has to stay banned for this format. I'm not so bothered by Troq or DeGrey usually but I think they give enough characters a hard time we should probably keep them out. Interestingly, while Geiger used to be my most loathed character, I'm starting to come round on him not being so bad. So maybe we could try Geiger in and Arg banned? Not because I have a particular beef with Arg, just because I'd like to see how Oni and Lum work without him in the meta. Also it gives Perse a good raison d'être.
4. Double elimination ft4 seems pretty much bang on imo. I much prefer ft4 over ft3 and DE is a good length of tourney with no tie breaker nonsense.
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Post by scymrian on Sept 28, 2016 13:37:09 GMT 1
1. It was a lot of fun, although I can't actually say that I prefer it to the 20 character format, I like both just fine.
2. I didn't get to DQ enough people, Kappa
3. It's fine, although again, I wouldn't actually note it as being better than standard. I like it all.
4. FT19. Nah, FT4 DE is good.
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Post by Bomber678 on Sept 28, 2016 13:44:35 GMT 1
Troq should definitely be banned in any sort of format where we're banning characters. He's just... too good. If you don't ban Geiger, Quince is not a viable character
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 15:05:21 GMT 1
1. I don't think it was better than normal 20XX tournament in any way, other than for novelty purposes. The old meta was just replaced with a new meta that was probably worse (IMO).
2. You were an immaculate TO, of course.
3. I think cycling the banning characters would be fine to just shift the meta whichever way you want to.
4. Tournament style was good.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 28, 2016 18:55:12 GMT 1
Troq should definitely be banned in any sort of format where we're banning characters. He's just... too good. If you don't ban Geiger, Quince is not a viable character Oh shit yeah I forgot, GEIGER MUST BE PURGED
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Post by FaceOnMars on Sept 30, 2016 2:30:38 GMT 1
1. Since I can lose to any character with elan, it doesn't matter who is banned. I'm always happy to have another tournament. 2. Scheduling ran smoothly for me. I appreciated the best practices statement about scheduling at the beginning of the tournament. 3. As far as I know, you banned the 4 top tier characters. Right? Sometimes when I play against those characters I automatically expect to lose. Not that I don't know I still need to work on my skills. 4. Double Elimination has become my favorite tournament style. Single Elimination means I'm wiped out and waiting for the next tournament. Swiss means I'm dragging out the inevitable. In Double Elimination, I feel like I could measure my success by winning at least one set (or more!) in either the winners or losers bracket. It won't probably matter though once I "Git Gooder". If I had a wish, it would be that I could find out who is streaming live and when. I think @iamnobody, snoc, and mysticjuicer (I know MJ doesn't stream) do such a great job commentating.
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Post by utralaw on Sept 30, 2016 3:15:18 GMT 1
1. I really enjoy playing the format mostly because it made me and others try out different character or use character we don't normally use. 2. Nope you,scymrian, and cpat all did a great job from my point of view of running and updating the challenge 3. I do like Jonny D idea of rotating the ban list to include back one Ban character and taking out another(rooting for Degrey to be back ) also for Data purposes to see if the numbers change in any way. Btw would love to see the final numbers like what Jengajam did for summer smash 4. As for format i like Double-elimination and First to four but don't mind of it has to change.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 1, 2016 22:26:52 GMT 1
Added wrap up stuff to the original post! Grats everyone and thanks for participating!
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Oct 2, 2016 1:40:36 GMT 1
i feel so much like mike ross and honda.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 2, 2016 1:59:09 GMT 1
So let's talk about the list of banned characters and whether it should change in round 2. Troq and Zane will always be banned in this format. They're the most played and also the highest winrate characters in the cast. If I exclude 19XX from the results, and look only at the last nine months, here's the play rate, winrate, and total wins for the cast. 712 (55%) 391 623 (56%) 346 570 (52%) 299 559 (CMB%) 280 559 (52%) 291 518 (53%) 272 507 (49%) 249 490 (51%) 248 ---------------------- 400 (44%) 176 390 (46%) 178 370 (48%) 179 362 (46%) 167 339 (48%) 163 284 (41%) 117 280 (49%) 137 273 (47%) 128 262 (47%) 122 252 (52%) 131 242 (52%) 127 240 (48%) 115 Maybe everyone above the line gets banned?
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 2, 2016 2:00:37 GMT 1
i feel so much like mike ross and honda. enomus might talk a big game, but he's wrong vendetta isn't the worst character in the game - jaina is
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Post by Zqxx on Oct 2, 2016 4:29:14 GMT 1
So let's talk about the list of banned characters and whether it should change in round 2. Troq and Zane will always be banned in this format. They're the most played and also the highest winrate characters in the cast. If I exclude 19XX from the results, and look only at the last nine months, here's the play rate, winrate, and total wins for the cast. 712 (55%) 391 623 (56%) 346 570 (52%) 299 559 (CMB%) 280 559 (52%) 291 518 (53%) 272 507 (49%) 249 490 (51%) 248 ---------------------- 400 (44%) 176 390 (46%) 178 370 (48%) 179 362 (46%) 167 339 (48%) 163 284 (41%) 117 280 (49%) 137 273 (47%) 128 262 (47%) 122 252 (52%) 131 242 (52%) 127 240 (48%) 115 Maybe everyone above the line gets banned? Just curious, what is the rationale for drawing the line where you did? On first glance, I feel like Grave and Rook at least should remain playable as they do not seem over-centralizing or dominant.
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Post by Bomber678 on Oct 2, 2016 4:44:03 GMT 1
So let's talk about the list of banned characters and whether it should change in round 2. Troq and Zane will always be banned in this format. They're the most played and also the highest winrate characters in the cast. If I exclude 19XX from the results, and look only at the last nine months, here's the play rate, winrate, and total wins for the cast. 712 (55%) 391 623 (56%) 346 570 (52%) 299 559 (CMB%) 280 559 (52%) 291 518 (53%) 272 507 (49%) 249 490 (51%) 248 ---------------------- 400 (44%) 176 390 (46%) 178 370 (48%) 179 362 (46%) 167 339 (48%) 163 284 (41%) 117 280 (49%) 137 273 (47%) 128 262 (47%) 122 252 (52%) 131 242 (52%) 127 240 (48%) 115 Maybe everyone above the line gets banned? Just curious, what is the rationale for drawing the line where you did? On first glance, I feel like Grave and Rook at least should remain playable as they do not seem over-centralizing or dominant. Looks like playrate to me. Juicer no, don't ban my main! ;_;
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 2, 2016 23:48:19 GMT 1
Total wins. There's a pretty steep drop-off in total wins at that point. Combination popularity and winrate.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 2, 2016 23:53:20 GMT 1
Tbh, I quite like the ban list as it is. I think that Gloria has a real role in the Arg/Sets/Grave meta - which I'm not even sure if that's the carousel at the moment, or if it's distorted by all the Setsuki and Arg that were played - and very few people picked her as part of their counterpicking stable. With more Glorias, I could see the carousel becoming a pretty interesting place to be.
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Post by utralaw on Oct 3, 2016 3:05:39 GMT 1
Just an idea not really thought out or anything but what are people thoughts on banning the top 2 most played character from every Round. This way people will still be force to use character they may or may not be use to, and the top tier character may or may not be ban by the end of the tournament.
Of course this means who ever TO this tournament would have to crunch in the numbers EVERY round to determine the 2 most played character but again just an idea.(it probably better than my idea of everyone gets one free pick of someone on the ban list)
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 3, 2016 4:18:56 GMT 1
Kind of a lot of work, especially when winners and losers are on different rounds.
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Post by Attilian on Oct 3, 2016 18:08:13 GMT 1
1: Yep. It's a new meta and exploring it and being forced out of my comfort zone was fun.
2: Nope.
3: No, I'd leave it the way it is for now. Plenty of exploration of this meta yet to be done.
4: I prefer BO5. I think BO7 is a little long and, from what I've heard, BO7 doesn't add a huge amount of accuracy.
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Post by Arkhan on Oct 13, 2016 7:38:12 GMT 1
1. Most Importantly, did you enjoy the format (in the sense of playing standard CP with DeGrey/Geiger/Troq/Zane banned)?
Yeah. I missed the memo when it comes to why they're anathema and it just makes me giggle to watch people shrink in fear from DeGrey. I've had it explained, I get the idea, it's just entertaining to me instead of terrifying. I'd play in a tournament with any rules that let me pilot Ms. Card Advantage anyway so that kind of thing just makes it more interesting, in a sense. (Yes, you'd think simply removing content is inherently less interesting because 'ask not for whom the bell tolls', but it's just for the different experience.) To be more specific I enjoyed the tournament, but I enjoyed it as a tournament and not as an experiment in CPs and changing the meta.
2. Did you have any issues with the way the tournament was run (specifically around DQ/advancement decisions, but also scheduling convos, other stuff)?
Nothing's coming to mind. On a completely unrelated note, I would recommend people do not play in multiple tournaments on the same night. Master. ♥
3. Anything you would change about the banned character list?
As a static list, eh... I mean, I'm 100% biased, but DeGrey doesn't put the fear of god into me. I get Geiger, you have to win in 15 turns or he coinflips for the round which is an unacceptable level of variance when you want to consistently do well in a tournament setting. Troq is like if you were to go back and redesign Rook now that you know how the game works better, and Zane's passive is a broken pile of nonsense that splits the cost of completing combos into a previously untapped resource (the top of the deck) that the core game mechanics weren't inherently designed to handle. DeGrey is like... he punishes you for having a few more cards in... hand? He dodges a bit more than everyone else I guess? Maybe I just played too many late night games back in the day to give a shit about DeGrey.
4. Anything you would change about the tournament format (Double-elimination, First to four matches)?
Double Elimination is good. First to Four is good, especially since you were altering the meta and that called for- in theory- more on the fly adaptation.
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Post by Southpaw Hare on Nov 2, 2016 17:47:18 GMT 1
Somehow I missed the train on this thread.
I enjoyed everything about how the tournament was run. However, I think Setsuki definitely should be banned along with the other characters. She seemed to dominate the game everywhere I watched, and the stats seem to confirm that.
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