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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 13, 2016 0:27:20 GMT 1
Agree with Jonny
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Post by flagrantangles on Oct 14, 2016 15:32:31 GMT 1
All I'm hearing is "BLOCKS 2 GUD."
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Post by flagrantangles on Oct 26, 2016 13:27:19 GMT 1
Guys, what's the Onimaru/Valerie matchup like? Which side do you enjoy/prefer playing if either?
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 27, 2016 19:47:59 GMT 1
Guys, what's the Onimaru/Valerie matchup like? Which side do you enjoy/prefer playing if either? Onimaru all day erry'day.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 27, 2016 19:57:53 GMT 1
As to why.
Pros for Oni: - Valerie has an awkward early game where she needs to build, and Oni has guard crush and loves to block. Oni loves dealing with attack/throw ranges. - Onimaru has a ton of ways to attack without worrying about Burst of Speed, between his Aces, Final Authority, Queens, and 5s. - Onimaru has more HP. Winning combat with a 10 is card neutral and deals 25% of Val's health.
Cons for Oni: - Just like any MU, if Oni falls behind in HP, his opponent can just dodge a lot for practically free. - Valerie deals very good damage on successful attack/throw combat wins in the mid-game.
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Post by scymrian on Oct 27, 2016 20:45:54 GMT 1
Yeah, I haven't put that much analytical thought into it, but MJ's points seem good, and I'm never unhappy when my opponent picks Valerie.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 27, 2016 20:59:02 GMT 1
Actually add to that list of Pros for Oni:
- Valerie's dodge follow-up is expensive (J++) and otherwise only okay (A). That means relatively low downsides for Oni, who primarily plays attack/blodge.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Oct 27, 2016 23:13:50 GMT 1
Valerie Pros: -Valerie does however have a decent Early game with Throw/Ace/Block. Getting KD early versus Onimaru can work out pretty well. -Her 10 can be used as a block as beating a lot of Oni's speeds are rarely relevant. -Valerie hits hard depending on her hand if Oni is trying to guard crush her blocks, which is generally an early game thing. Don't be afraid to 6 attack! everything loses to 5 normal anyways!!! -Use Burst of Speed to clash with Single Ace to avoid Clockwork Formations Ability -K is a strong starter in this matchup as Onimaru doesn't have a ton of dodges.
Valerie Cons:
-Valerie has less dodges then she seems as 2/3 are generally attack starters. Need to make your dodges count and might need to conserve 2/3s in combos/starters. -Onimaru's Face Card spam is annoying late game.
But yeah I find Valerie has to hit him before he hits his late game phase of I have a million Final Authoritys.
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Post by flagrantangles on Nov 23, 2016 17:28:25 GMT 1
Since it's EXTRA PERTINENT, what are people's thoughts on the Quince Mirror?!
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Post by Kraetyz on Nov 23, 2016 18:05:54 GMT 1
Since it's EXTRA PERTINENT, what are people's thoughts on the Quince Mirror?! imo 6-4 Quince favor
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Post by ExSeth on Nov 23, 2016 18:06:44 GMT 1
Quince v. Quince is one of maybe 20 10-0 matchups. It's pretty impossible for Quince to lose, and I think that Quince's dominant matchup against Quince can be pretty discouraging if you're looking to pick up the character or take him to tourneys.
More seriously, though, it's a pretty interesting mirror. Quince's tools feel a lot better when they aren't being held back by their poor speed. His 2.8 single A is one of the faster buttons in the matchup, and throwing out big 5 attacks to fish for throws and score sick straights carries a lot less risk, since you're only really getting outsped by a 3, J, A, or AA. Clashes are more interesting than usual, too, since Spin v. Spin orientation adds another layer of decision-making to the mix. I'm enjoying the mirror so far, and look forward to continuing to explore its intricacies as the Single Character Spindown continues.
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Post by Kraetyz on Nov 23, 2016 21:44:15 GMT 1
Well put from ExSeth - I haven't played the mirror myself yet, but I can already agree that when Quince actually DOESN'T auto-lose due to his shitty speed, he actually has some cool tools to pull out. Question: How does his Flagstone Tax affect gameplay in the mirror? I'd assume it could be a really good response versus a player that has a Spin advantage on you, but maybe that's not how it plays out. I'm not a Quince genius, which you're all about to see soon enough.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Nov 24, 2016 0:13:45 GMT 1
Well put from ExSeth - I haven't played the mirror myself yet, but I can already agree that when Quince actually DOESN'T auto-lose due to his shitty speed, he actually has some cool tools to pull out. Question: How does his Flagstone Tax affect gameplay in the mirror? I'd assume it could be a really good response versus a player that has a Spin advantage on you, but maybe that's not how it plays out. I'm not a Quince genius, which you're all about to see soon enough. Flagstone Tax Only works there if you're trying to keep him "honest" really. Since if you say Tax Throw on King Spin quince can just lead with Dodge side and doesn't trigger the tax. IF you tax Attack you make him less likely to play the dishonest option. Defensively tax is good as a way to help versus Cross Ups/Dominant Attack while KD. Offensively kinda "standard Quince things."
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Post by Arkhan on Dec 4, 2016 2:47:18 GMT 1
Quince-Quince is 60-40 in both directions
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Post by mysticjuicer on Dec 4, 2016 2:56:45 GMT 1
Quince-Quince is 60-40 in both directions *infinitely looping eyebrow waggle vine*
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Post by ExSeth on Feb 17, 2017 15:59:35 GMT 1
So, with SCS2 on the horizon, I figure now would be an appropriate time to discuss the Oni mirror.
The mirror might be the worst matchup for General's Armor, since trading 10 damage for 10-15 damage is pretty meh, though getting normal draw is fine? Yet, it's probably one of the better matchups for 6 attack. Oni's blocks for it are only 7 and 9, and 9's are a little risky to block with, since nobody wants to get their Final Authority crushed or grabbed. 6 seems like a reasonable hedge vs. higher normals, grabs, and blocks.
But I'm an Oni novice! What are the thoughts of more experienced Generals?
EDIT: Also it goes without saying that the matchup is 10-0 in favor of Rook.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 12, 2017 2:02:21 GMT 1
I remember wanting to reply regarding the Onimaru mirror but I never did. OOPS.
Opinion time. I was thinking about two matchups that are terrible (according to consensus) and was wondering which one people prefer to play from the disadvantaged side and why. Specifically, I was thinking of Geiger/Quince and Argagarg/Onimaru.
I would personally rather play as Quince versus Geiger over Oni versus Arg. I feel like Quince has more freedom in the early game against Geiger but then, in the late game, is really in a bind. Onimaru feels pretty evenly oppressed until the late game where I think things intensify a bit more but not quite as much as it does against Quince.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 12, 2017 20:36:55 GMT 1
I remember wanting to reply regarding the Onimaru mirror but I never did. OOPS. Opinion time. I was thinking about two matchups that are terrible (according to consensus) and was wondering which one people prefer to play from the disadvantaged side and why. Specifically, I was thinking of Geiger/Quince and Argagarg/Onimaru. I would personally rather play as Quince versus Geiger over Oni versus Arg. I feel like Quince has more freedom in the early game against Geiger but then, in the late game, is really in a bind. Onimaru feels pretty evenly oppressed until the late game where I think things intensify a bit more but not quite as much as it does against Quince. I'd go Quince - Geiger is harder to play well than Arg, and Quince is harder to understand than Oni. That said, Oni/Arg is one of the bad match-ups I don't mind too much in this game. I think Arg players can get themselves into a lot of trouble if they think it's free.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 13, 2017 0:22:21 GMT 1
It's funny you mention that since I just rewatched the TOPANDA 2 match between Leontes and Bob199 where exactly that happened.
In the times when I've played against Geiger with Quince, it mostly went well because Positive Spin is good against anyone and if you have the fuel to keep going, you can win the MU. However, the times where it was really bad were times when I struggled to get face cards and Geiger was chock full of Time Spirals. That felt pretty uncomfortable, but that's the way the cookie is gonna crumble sometimes.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jun 14, 2017 1:13:23 GMT 1
That said, Oni/Arg is one of the bad match-ups I don't mind too much in this game. I think Arg players can get themselves into a lot of trouble if they think it's free. So would you say this is another instance of Orange Rook >> Rook? Joking aside, I'd say that Oni Vs Arg is easier than Rook Vs Arg because Oni has a lot more uncounterable counterplay vs Arg's fast pokes (FA, dodge, single A, Q) and can even throw for more than 15 damage without needing four aces! I'd say Arg probably sits somewhere close to Geiger in the runnings for Rook's worst matchup, which is interesting as a bunch of the MU charts seem to think its not that bad.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 15, 2017 22:55:57 GMT 1
It turns out dodges are Extemely Good
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 19, 2017 20:14:36 GMT 1
Okay, I was thinking about the Valerie/Setsuki matchup and I was wondering about Setsuki's counter and when to use it. Let's say you have a situation where Setsuki is knocked down and Valerie decides to go for a juicy 5 crossup but Setsuki just throws out an Esper Dash or even a 2 attack. Valerie goes to spend BoS since she has enough in hand to beat Setsuki's 2/J. If Setsuki has a Smoke Bomb in hand, is there any reason she should counter the first BoS over the second one? I feel like it's way better to counter the 2nd one since then you force Val to spend resources for no gain. I feel like I've never seen this come up but that may be more because it's an unlikely edge case. THOUGHTS?!
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 19, 2017 21:50:41 GMT 1
Yeah, always wait to counter the BoS that would let Valerie "win" the combat.
Also don't pick Valerie against Setsuki.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 20, 2017 0:15:18 GMT 1
I haven't minded playing against Setsuki versus Valerie in the past. I have the impression that it's pretty even?
Also, I have no comfortable CP to Setsuki or Valerie. Although I don't mind Geiger against either.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 20, 2017 2:36:05 GMT 1
I haven't minded playing against Setsuki versus Valerie in the past. I have the impression that it's pretty even? Also, I have no comfortable CP to Setsuki or Valerie. Although I don't mind Geiger against either. I feel like Valerie just gets smothered by Setsuki's dodge/throw/Q range.
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Post by snoc on Jun 21, 2017 12:49:23 GMT 1
I feel like both Val/Sets can get into awkward hands. If Setsuki can't draw Queens or 10s, and Valerie gets a good hand, then Setsuki's 70 hitpoints aren't going to last long. And if you want to keep SotF going, you can only keep one of Q/10. Val's throw damage can either be huge (33! nearly half a Setsuki!) or slightly less huge and really card efficient (22+ for only 2/3 cards). I think overall it's a bit swingy depending on draws, as you might expect a "rushdown" mirror to be.
edit: further thoughts: Setsuki's 7 is important as a throw in this MU too (as is Val's), so it's harder than usual to recur Qs and so they are even more valuable. Against a 70 hp character, it's less important to bolster your combo damage so Val's pretty happy to try to win throw vs throw without risking BoS or when it's not been drawn. And a throw tech is probably Val-favour too.
Overall it's probably still Setsuki favour, as nobody's mentioned how real Jokers are and how sad that makes Val, but I don't think it's that much.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 21, 2017 22:12:29 GMT 1
Setsuki just has far less awkward hands on average. If she has a throw then she can prevent Valerie from comfortably blocking, and if she has a dodge she can prevent Valerie from normal drawing, both of which she wants to do in the early game. Valerie often loses by winning combat with throw-J++/AA/666 in the early and mid-game, simply because it gives Setsuki more opportunities to oppress a small or awkward hand. So Val has to play pretty patiently for quite a while in the very early game and/or the mid-to-late game, and just not lose combat.
Val has single A to beat all non-Q reveals, but she needs to hit with it A LOT for it to matter. Her Q is often just a bad version of single A, dealing less card efficient damage, and beating/losing to the exact same set of options. Burst of Speed is unreliable and again, lowers card efficiency. If you win combat off something you needed BoS twice for, you have to have a pretty specific hand for that not to be a net loss to you. Like, you need at least 3 other normals for that to be a win. Even an unsuccessful use of Smoke Bomb is still advancing Setsuki's gameplan of cycling through her deck to look for more Qs and Jokers.
Yes, Valerie can perfect Setsuki and make it look hilariously easy, but that's just how Setsuki losses often look. Valerie wins the match-up by Winning Combat and Setsuki not having a Joker when she does. She's one of the softest characters in the game to Blue Burst, against one of the most consistently Joker-drawing characters in the game, and one of characters who's hand composition is the most difficult to guess at in the entire cast, imo.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 21, 2017 22:19:41 GMT 1
That all said, if there's some angle I'm not considering, I'd be more than happy to see some anti-Sets Valerie tech in action. It'd further shake up 19XX, which is always what I'm rooting for. I've just personally taken too many convincing Val/Sets losses to believe it's even.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 22, 2017 17:34:22 GMT 1
I guess I feel like Valerie just plays a much more poke-oriented game in this matchup.
I don't have a ton of experience and certainly not high-level experience but I've generally played it with much less of a focus on building a hand for damage since Setsuki is likely to find her jokers and because her combat options are just good. I would much rather just take 3-4 normal strings and get my Ace/Aces and then poke her right in the fox paws. Mostly, this will make the games last longer, but it should also mean that Valerie isn't going to devastate her hand and Setsuki should be less able to oppress her.
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Post by scymrian on Jun 22, 2017 18:51:17 GMT 1
Well, yes, winning combat is a good strategy
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