|
Post by flagrantangles on Aug 31, 2016 17:47:35 GMT 1
Hello friends!
I really rather enjoyed ratxt1's "Ask for matchup numbers" thread from Fantasy Strike (soon to be gone from this world) so I thought it would be great to make another iteration of it. Previously the focus was on ascribing a numerical shorthand to the match ups and while I have no real problem with that, I find them unhelpful unless paired with actual explanation so I would like this thread to be focused around an explanation of advantage or disadvantage. Feel free to use whatever system you'd like to describe that advantage/disadvantage dynamic.
Additionally, because I would like this space to be welcoming, I would like to encourage people who don't have a lot of relevant experience to the match up being discussed to chime in with your thoughts and especially questions! Learning and improving is our goal, after all!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 18:14:14 GMT 1
So what matchup you wanna talk about?
Actually, I have one. Vendetta vs. Geiger.
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Aug 31, 2016 18:46:09 GMT 1
All of them!
I think I have played that match up once from the Geiger side. I remember being nervous since Vendetta's 2-attack outspeeds fast time spiral and that's a no bueno situation. That said, no one besides Geiger wants Geiger to build a hand and make TD especially threatening so I suspect you can't just throw those 2's out willy-nilly! On the plus side, the only attacks Geiger has that defeat Vendetta's 2 are his King and Aces. On the down side, his king and aces are really good.
Mitigating the goodness of his aces, however, is Acrobatics. Revealing Cycloid Revolution or Time Spiral Hurricane only to have them brushed to the side because Vendetta is really good at jumping out of the way is disappointing and will probably hamstring Geiger's damage potential so that probably limits how reckless he can be with them.
It seems even to very mildly advantaged for Geiger to me. I think Geiger's blocks are powerful and running attacks into them is too dangerous. On the other hand, Vendetta can do an enormous amount of damage and has an oppressive, recurring attack in neutral. I like the idea of his king-vortex since the only things that beat it are still Geiger's king and aces and it seems pretty costly to give those up to get out of the vortex.
What I'm really saying is that I have thoughts and they're only mildly coherent as they relate to this match up.
|
|
|
Post by ntillerman on Aug 31, 2016 19:14:08 GMT 1
I think Vendetta v Geiger is slight Vendetta advantage. 2 poke and strong dodges match up very well against Geiger's spirals, and Acro makes TD much weaker than it would otherwise be. This is also a matchup where early naked K throw is unusually good- it's still not a super high % play, but Geiger's high block frequency and need for cards makes it better than it would otherwise be I think.
All that said, Geiger still has just lots of good cards and 90 HP, and Vendetta gets clunky hands frequently, so it's still pretty close. Numerically, I would say either 5.25 or 5.5 advantage to Ven.
|
|
|
Post by Kraetyz on Aug 31, 2016 22:34:48 GMT 1
I think that ntillerman summarized my thoughts on the MU pretty well. I still consider it even, because Acro doesn't happen often enough and it only delays TD rather than remove it. Being a 75 HP character, Vendetta just fucking melts on TD turns and Geiger has plenty of ways to get to a good TD turn, so... but yeah, Ven doesn't exactly struggle.
I have a question, though: Argagarg vs Valerie. I think I've played it a few times and I imagine Arg having a big advantage here, but then I realize there are people that play Throw Val and at that point, uh. Who wins? What should this matchup even play like?
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 1, 2016 12:48:34 GMT 1
I suspect that Arg is more consistent in the match up, but that Val is so volatile that it sometimes doesn't matter. Both of Arg's abilities are a pain in the ass for Valerie. He can counter Burst of Speed and Flying Rainbow Stroke to prevent her from winning combat and getting in. Additionally, he can prevent her from doing burst damage with Protective Ward. That said, I suspect Protective Ward is going to predominantly come out when Arg is knocked down or when Arg's life is down so he can really hamstring Valerie and let Hex do its work.
I don't think Arg has a huge advantage, but Arg, by the nature of his Aces, requires that you play differently against him and I think that can feel oppressive all on its own. So, all in all, I think I would agree that he probably has the advantage since it doesn't seem to me that there's any real change in Arg's normal game plan whereas Valerie's seems significantly hindered.
Based on mysticjuicer's historical matchup chart, I can see that the match up has been played 102 times and that Arg has won it 58 times while Val has won it 44 times. It seems mildly Arg-advantaged at a glance.
What are other people's thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Bomber678 on Sept 1, 2016 15:35:08 GMT 1
On Geiger-Vendetta: Ryker talks a lot about this matchup, and I tend to agree with his thoughts. The matchup is Geiger favoured because of Time Spiral Hurricane in particular. It's a very strong combat reveal (especially on a TD) turn, and while you say "Acro beats aces" and you're right, immediately after acro you can throw a Fast Time Spiral to achieve the same thing, or throw if you suspect a dodge in particular. That 50/50 is often far better for Geiger than it is for Vendetta, because if he hits (in TD of course) Vendetta is basically dead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 17:34:57 GMT 1
I agree with Bomber/Ryker's assessment. Acrobatics might save you for a turn, but it doesn't defuse TD, and then the mixup on the next turn is worse. 2 is an important tool for Vendetta but it doesn't change Geiger's gameplan that much. It's always felt like slight Geiger favor to me.
|
|
|
Post by feathers on Sept 3, 2016 17:29:21 GMT 1
Don't know whether this has been talked over before, but I'm curious about Quince-DeGrey. As someone new to this game, what I'm seeing so far is: Two high health characters, one wants to build up a hand and vortex into repeated combat wins, the other wants to keep a low hand and obliterate in a few high-damage strikes. Both have a prohibition-style ability, though DeGrey's seem better at setting up a dilemma on its own (Attack is way less effective when it's named by TR than by FT) while Quince's work better in tandem with his Spins. Both play mindgames with their options but in different ways - the opponent expects similiar mix-ups, but Quince covers more options in reality while DeGrey threatens higher consequences for a wrong reveal. Degrey also has faster attacks on Quince, but Quince loves his dodges. I haven't played this matchup a lot but it seems both thematically and mechanically interesting. Would love it if it was somewhere close to 5-5.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by banewlf on Sept 3, 2016 18:09:54 GMT 1
Re: Geiger-Ven
This always felt like a solidly Geiger favored matchup. He just has too many good combat reveals and dominant options, and KD is so incredibly bad for Ven. Since Ven needs atleast 4 touches to kill Geiger, he can't get away with going all-in and not spending some time building a hand, which is a very good thing for Geiger. 2 is definitely strong in this matchup, but Geiger has plenty of ways to stuff Ven's very limited 2s. K mixup is also not particularly great in this matchup. Two strong reversals just makes this tough for Ven. As mentioned, Acro isn't as strong as it first appears, since the followup turn is pretty bad for Ven. One nice thing is being able to clash Js on KD.
|
|
|
Post by cloudcuckoocountry on Sept 5, 2016 13:52:55 GMT 1
I haven't played a lot of Geiger v. Ven, but I distinctly remember Vendetta being one of the characters who would give my Geiger a lot of trouble when Ven has good cards. (But when does Ven ever have good cards?)
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 6, 2016 16:41:11 GMT 1
Don't know whether this has been talked over before, but I'm curious about Quince-DeGrey. As someone new to this game, what I'm seeing so far is: Two high health characters, one wants to build up a hand and vortex into repeated combat wins, the other wants to keep a low hand and obliterate in a few high-damage strikes. Both have a prohibition-style ability, though DeGrey's seem better at setting up a dilemma on its own (Attack is way less effective when it's named by TR than by FT) while Quince's work better in tandem with his Spins. Both play mindgames with their options but in different ways - the opponent expects similiar mix-ups, but Quince covers more options in reality while DeGrey threatens higher consequences for a wrong reveal. Degrey also has faster attacks on Quince, but Quince loves his dodges. I haven't played this matchup a lot but it seems both thematically and mechanically interesting. Would love it if it was somewhere close to 5-5. Thoughts? I think your outline is accurate. I believe the consensus is that the match up is even to slightly advantaged for Quince. Also, as I play Quince and not DeGrey, my opinions are going to be coming from the Quince side of things. I don't have any organized thoughts about this, but I desperately love how Quince's Positive Spin interacts negatively with DeGrey's Moral High Ground. For instance, if Quince reveals a King for Positive Spin, and then DeGrey plays a 7 or 8 throw, Quince would normally be tempted to use Positive Spin to gain a card and mitigate his combat loss. However, that's risky against DeGrey since you're potentially empowering him to do more damage to you. I personally think that's very interesting and engaging. Furthermore, that very dynamic should also factor into your Flagstone Taxes. It's pretty common for Quince to use Flagstone Tax during Positive Spin to tax the option that beats the revealed card. However, I'm more inclined to switch that around versus DeGrey because I don't want to lose combat, draw a bunch of cards, and give DeGrey the extra punch via Moral High Ground. Furthermore, because of the wording on Flagstone Tax and Troublesome Rhetoric, they both have ways to dodge each other's abilities. If DeGrey uses Troublesome Rhetoric and flags Attacks and Quince has Positive Spin for a Queen or Jack, Quince can lead them with their non-attack sides first and spin into the attack sides without triggering Troublesome Rhetoric. DeGrey can do a similar thing versus Flagstone Tax with his 7 ability, Point, Counterpoint. Overall, I think Quince has the slight advantage because DeGrey isn't that much faster than Quince. Two important cards, Pilebunker and Point, Counterpoint are beaten by slow attacks that Quince is not unlikely to reveal. Furthermore, Quince and DeGrey have the same throw speeds so the only way to undercut one another is to play a lower ranked throw. And if DeGrey does this too much, he opens himself up to some unfortunate King Spin shenanigans. That said, if Quince doesn't get anything started, DeGrey can grind him down relatively quickly depending on his own hand composition and draws. Sidenote: Pilebunker beats Quince's Q-Spin.
|
|
|
Post by madking on Sept 8, 2016 0:18:54 GMT 1
Arg vs Val: Slight Val advantage. Arg will probably get a decent amount of Hex damage but dominant throw into 30 a couple times is pretty great for Val. Arg can easily die in 3 bad guesses, and doesn't necessarily put a lot of pressure on Val to stop her from building. That being said, PW is more damaging to Val than maybe any other character besides Gwen. This does give Val two ranks of dominant throw without having to use 10s, though. It's definitely a bit of a volatile matchup but I give the edge to Val.
DeGrey vs Quince: Quince knocks down DeGrey off of everything and DeGrey is sad. DeGrey has to ration his 7s for Kspin (and to stop 7+dodge PM from being oppressive). Quince has 90 health. Advantage time for Quince frequently turns off DeGrey using value cards, either because he's knocked down (A dodge) or can't afford to gamble them away (K/J spin turning off K/Q). As flagrantangles mentioned, DeGrey isn't notably faster than Quince is. I think this matchup is more favored for Quince than most others do with the obvious disclaimer of #DeGrammage.
|
|
|
Post by FraaOrolo on Sept 11, 2016 19:26:11 GMT 1
RE vs Somewhere on the old forums you can probably find this full discussion. I'll give you the simplified version of it. On the surface layer this MU is probably Arg advantaged. He has a lot of tools to shut down Val's normal gameplan. However if you go further you discover this is probably less true than you might think. Arg dies to burst damage pretty bad. His average damage off a combat win is low so against a character like Val he has to win 2 combats for every one combat that Val wins. So if Val realizes that she can sit back and play a throw/block range for the first half of the game fairly safely then the MU becomes slightly Val advantaged. Things to remember. Don't play K in neutral even if it would beat the Ace that you know Arg has. 10* will just ruin your day. Save it for pumping those Js. Avoid using 7*. BoS may be counterable but 7 throw is still the dominant throw in the MU. Remember that Arg doesn't always have 10* so feel free to be more aggressive sometimes and use BoS. Remember that this is a MU where Arg is slightly uncomfortably going block/block in. Val is very card hungry so she needs to get those blocks in. Obviously you can't go block/block forever but on a weaker hand it's always better to go block/block than it is to do a throw with bad or no followup. Overall, I think most people think that in a match between experienced players Val vs Arg is more like 5.25-4.75 at this point? Though, as I said, Val has to play a different game plan than she would like to.
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 12, 2016 14:01:03 GMT 1
Friends, what on earth is the Gloria/Grave match up like?
Seems like it would be rough for Gloria because Grave's speeds across the board are irritating.
As far as Grave's abilities go, I want to say that Martial Mastery is less of a thing in this match up since Gloria keeps refilling her hand from her discard pile and that helps Grave keep her out since his 7 is the trump throw in the match up. Additionally, I think his counter will be costly to him, but probably worth it to help keep Gloria's hand constrained.
I think Gloria's fragility is going to be highlighted in this match up since Gloria's key speeds of 1.0 and 2.2 are mildly contested. Grave's Ace and King trade favorably with Gloria's Queen and Jack, respectively. Grave's King also trades with Gloria's King, albeit that's more in Gloria's favor in the individual combats. However, given Grave's higher life total, I think it ostensibly favors him when he has the lead. Maybe not though. Additionally, Grave's blocks are ballin', especially since they help him recur Queens which are pretty good too.
I don't really play either one of these characters so I'm just musing aloud. Feel free to add any additional thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 14, 2016 14:59:42 GMT 1
Also, because I just lost this match up and felt like I was floundering wildly, what are people's thoughts on Quince versus Troq?
|
|
|
Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 14, 2016 17:01:33 GMT 1
I think it's great!
|
|
|
Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 14, 2016 21:48:53 GMT 1
Also, because I just lost this match up and felt like I was floundering wildly, what are people's thoughts on Quince versus Troq? More seriously, I like it more than Rook vs Quince. My very very preliminary thoughts on the match-up:
Troq has 2.2 speed Jack, 0.8 speed Queen, and 1.0 speed AA to stuff raw Patriot Mirror, and Q/AA also beat Consent of the Governed, which is really nice. Troq's 4 attack, and to a lesser extent his 5 attack are good buttons in neutral, defending against throw, 5 attack into straight, and raw Queen from Quince, while only losing to neutral Quince Jacks, A/AA, and 3 attack (which get gobbled up by Kings).
As Quince, you can probably afford to throw a little more often in this match-up than against Rook? Troq has a harder time building a hand, because his blocks disappear instead of sticking around, and unless Quince gets hit with a 4, 5, or 6 attack, you're either going to get counterthrown for 8/15 (most of the time), or hit for 7 or 9 (Jack or Queen). Once Troq's on the ground, you're a bit hampered by only really having the 6 as an even crossup, which means you need to get lucky with an odd attack, or throw KD'd Troq.
Troq's War Stomp is a great tool for shutting down Patriot Mirror or Positive Spin turns if he's standing, or punishing a Quince that's playing very aggressively and doesn't manage to close the game out in the early/mid game.
Troq will basically always have a throw to beat K-spin, with his 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, and Ks. Keep an eye on his discard in the late-game, because he might be in a position where he's soft to Q-spin? That might not be real, but I know I was feeling that in a couple of spots. J-spin is a nice way to force some blodges, though with War Stomp, Troq might be more willing to push buttons at it, to protect against throw, since both the honest Jack and the "you have to blodge" throw aren't very scary. Might be good to use spins in general to set up cheeky but vulnerable Quince normals?
Don't get hit by Beast Unleashed.
|
|
|
Post by migohunter on Sept 18, 2016 6:06:31 GMT 1
Also, because I just lost this match up and felt like I was floundering wildly, what are people's thoughts on Quince versus Troq? I think it's only slight disadvantage for Quince, 4.5-5.5. Troq being really incentivized to block, he's open to a lot of throws and Quince can actually play a fairly aggressive range against him. This also allows you to get away with a surprising amount of blocking against Troq if you don't have a good hand to fully take advantage of your spin time. Sure, Troq has a lot of fast decent face cards but they really don't lead to a lot of damage so you can afford to take random hits (except for his K). The main annoying thing in the mu is War Stomp when Quince spins of course, but you still get a mixup so it's not so bad. However Troq can simply play a fast attack to get out of the spin zone for free, but if you block it it's a really strong win for you.
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 26, 2016 12:31:25 GMT 1
Sweet pickles! Thanks migohunter and mysticjuicer for your sweet match up thoughts. I will harness this power to put an end to the oppression of Troq's face cards.
|
|
|
Post by phrawger on Sept 28, 2016 19:26:22 GMT 1
BEHOLD THE MUCMUCModular Ubiquitous Composite Match-Up ChartBuilt on the back of scymrian and his work with the Composite Matchup Chart, I've added functionality to remove charts at will. There's a few extra bits of functionality under the hood, but mostly it just compiles as many of the existing charts as you care about and averages the values from those charts. You can use the controls at the bottom of the MUCMUC page to remove charts from the algorithm (delete any text in the green box, if it works, it'll turn red) or add them back in (type any non-whitespace characters in the colored box). Other things I intend to work on are a Modular Meta generator (inspired by 19XX, can we tweak the meta beneficially?) and some three-character stable statistics (functions exist under the hood, but I need to take the time to make them neat and tidy). Hope someone can get some use from this.
|
|
|
Post by scymrian on Sept 28, 2016 19:52:16 GMT 1
With the MUCMUC, Phrawger gave the functionality so many people wanted but I could not be motivated to learn how to implement. mysticjuicer I recommend replacing any links to my doc with links to his instead, now that it's public. It's strictly better imo
|
|
|
Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 28, 2016 21:38:37 GMT 1
but is it strictly correct?
(will do)
|
|
|
Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 28, 2016 21:39:58 GMT 1
ALL HAIL THE MUCMUC (and the meta-generator and three-char stable analysis have got me horned up for real!)
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Sept 29, 2016 14:09:14 GMT 1
ALL HAIL THE MUCMUC (and the meta-generator and three-char stable analysis have got me horned up for real!) Sir, please put that away. Your instrument won't be needed until we serve refreshments in the conservatory. All glory to the MUCMUC.
|
|
|
Post by Fusxfaranto on Oct 3, 2016 4:45:04 GMT 1
Does anyone have any thoughts on the Gwen-Troq matchup? I've made comments about it to people before, but I've been inclined to think that it's slightly Gwen-disadvantaged at worst, and even at best. Relentless Strikes is a very powerful tool against Giant Growth, Chains of Ice makes it scary for Troq to throw, Gwen can usually avoid using low normal attacks as combat reveals, etc. Still, it seems like most people consider this matchup solidly in Troq's favor. Is Eagle Totem that big of a deal, or is there something else I've been missing?
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Oct 3, 2016 14:00:40 GMT 1
I played this matchup very early in my Yomi career during IYL4. I didn't do very well but I figured Relentless Strikes was good in the matchup since it helps you defang Beast Unleashed. My thoughts on the matchup are mostly ones of frustration but I think that's partly because I don't enjoy fighting Troq with anyone who isn't named Geiger.
Anyway, Relentless Strikes does help against Troq's blocks, but it still helps him draw cards and it also burns Gwen's hand. I find Troq's face cards irritating to play around. His King is the easiest one to play around since Gwen can pretty safely just lead with her Kings and Jacks. However, Troq has dodges and his King is an excellent follow up in that case. Furthermore, his Queens and Eagle Totem beat every aggressive option Gwen will lead outside of her own Queen. I like to lead with 2-attack with Gwen pretty often so I think my irritation with his Jack is really my own problem, but probably is worth noting.
I think the real issue here is that Troq can afford to take more hits than Gwen can. From the get-go he starts off with 10 more life and if you want to factor in the effect of Shadow Plague he effectively starts off with an even greater lead. Ultimately, Troq is good at winning or trading combat and he is much better equipped to navigate that than Gwen. As time goes on, I have begun to realize that Gwen is not really a character who can afford to lose more than a couple of combats at the very most since checkmates are uncomfortably real. Gwen has to play far more carefully than Troq does and that necessarily serves Troq better than it does Gwen.
However, with all that said, I'm pretty open to being wrong or misled. I don't have a lot of experience against Troq with any character and I do inherently find him frustrating to fight.
|
|
|
Post by mysticjuicer on Oct 3, 2016 14:05:47 GMT 1
I think that's a good summary. Gwen might be able to put Troq in a position where he is without a block in hand. But he probably has a Q or a J when that happens. I feel like this is one of those matches where it's Rook advantaged, so imagine a character who gets slightly fewer blocks, but who's Q beats Gwen's 2. *shrugs* Also I think Troq can get Beast Unleashed online pretty well, but if he can't AA still beats everything but Gwen's blodge or Q.
|
|
|
Post by flagrantangles on Oct 12, 2016 21:50:56 GMT 1
Guys, what's the Rook Valerie matchup like? I remember enjoying the Rook side early on but I think that's a product of nostalgia and youthful inexperience on the parts of me and my opponents.
It seems like maybe a mild Valerie advantage because her aces are plentiful and stop rock armor but then I remember that Val needs to build a hand and Rook really enjoys blocking.
What are everyone else's thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Oct 12, 2016 22:32:49 GMT 1
Rook favored. She really struggles to have a hand early and late game AA beats a ton of Valerie options. If Rook plays for AA, Valerie has to dodge/Q for 14 or 21 damage reward. Also dodging versus Rook. Rooks 5 block doesn't really do much, but it prevents chip so its still solid. (Valerie J/A do 3 chip wow!) Valerie can also play 5/6 in neutral with a Burst of Speed backup, but that's a ton of resources if Rook plays something fast. Valerie K is also good at winning combat, but it doesn't really have super high reward until late game. If Valerie doesn't lead with Ace she can get Rook armored late game. So probably 5.5 Rook? Valerie still has some of the best throw punishes in the game even without Burst of Speed. This is also one of the matchups where if Rook is average-low hand late game he'll get destroyed since Valerie can have the dominant throw.
|
|