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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 22, 2017 20:17:45 GMT 1
Well, yeah, it is, in fact, a winning strategy. But I was trying to elucidate that it's harder for Setsuki to oppress Valerie if Val doesn't blow her hand on damage. Overall, it seems to me that Setsuki beats Val in neutral because of her Queen and her Ace...kinda. Valerie wins Ace ties and with BoS (which is, admittedly less reliable) her normals can beat anything else Setsuki throws out. Setsuki's dodges are often not that spooky. I think Val can sorta oppress Setsuki if she plays moderately conservatively.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jun 23, 2017 11:27:53 GMT 1
*hopes for a Valerie vs Setsuki exhibition match to settle this*
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Post by thehug0naut on Jun 27, 2017 0:10:19 GMT 1
So, after being smooshed 3-0 in my 3rd IYL match, all with me as Arg vs Grave, I come for wisdom. I'm thinking I must've played it wrongly as it's supposed to be a somewhat advantaged match for Arg, but I found it tougher than Arg vs Geiger.
It seems to me that Grave's problem of "not much damage outside TPoS" isn't such a weakness vs Arg's clearly low damage ceiling. Grave can simply use his excellent speeds to win combat with "better than Arg damage" essentially every time.
Arg's throws also feel especially slow in this match because his 7s are super valuable as TPoS defence and Graves throws have the speed edge anyway. This means Arg probably doesn't get much use out of his counter, since Grave will want to 7-throw much more than 7*.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Jun 27, 2017 1:57:57 GMT 1
So, after being smooshed 3-0 in my 3rd IYL match, all with me as Arg vs Grave, I come for wisdom. I'm thinking I must've played it wrongly as it's supposed to be a somewhat advantaged match for Arg, but I found it tougher than Arg vs Geiger. It seems to me that Grave's problem of "not much damage outside TPoS" isn't such a weakness vs Arg's clearly low damage ceiling. Grave can simply use his excellent speeds to win combat with "better than Arg damage" essentially every time. Arg's throws also feel especially slow in this match because his 7s are super valuable as TPoS defence and Graves throws have the speed edge anyway. This means Arg probably doesn't get much use out of his counter, since Grave will want to 7-throw much more than 7*. Id have to check the replay, but it sounds like you needed to power up for aces more. Its not as bad as a cp as people say (i put it on the lower end of the 4-6s), i mean i over perform and get good draws on grave side, butttt graves blocks are really strong and his throws while not huge on damage are efficient.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jun 27, 2017 3:49:40 GMT 1
Speaking only from a theory perspective, Arg wins the early game on footsies, and the late game if he doesn't get hit by TPoS, I think. Arg's J/Q/2 all outspace, or "lose equitably" to Graves J/K. This also means that in the lategame, if you have Jokers and are able to discourage raw TPoS with enough A/AA reveals, you almost can't be hit by cross-up/poke/dodge into TPoS. If Grave ever powers up throws for Aces, it can also put him in a throw starved place for many turns.
I don't know. It definitely feels like one of those match-ups where pokey Arg beats impatient Grave, patient Grave beats pokey Arg, patient Arg beats patient Grave, super-patient Grave beats patient Arg, and throwy Arg makes super-patient Grave lose his damn mind and start playing raw TPoS at every opportunity. Maybe that last one is just me.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jun 27, 2017 13:35:12 GMT 1
*furiously scribbles notes*
Must make super-patient grave lose his damn mind
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Post by flagrantangles on Jun 29, 2017 15:59:38 GMT 1
I play pretty block heavy and patiently against Arg with nearly anyone. I try to limit my generally strong compulsion to throw since Arg can poke forever. I like to block enough that Arg gets antsy and starts throwing and then I can counter-throw or maybe poke him out, depending on whether or not aces are known.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jul 11, 2017 5:31:58 GMT 1
Hello Yomi friends! Who is your preferred Setsuki CP? I feel like she is a problem for me so I'd like to hear about other people's answers to her.
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Post by Southpaw Hare on Jul 11, 2017 5:47:58 GMT 1
Hello Yomi friends! Who is your preferred Setsuki CP? I feel like she is a problem for me so I'd like to hear about other people's answers to her. I like to go with Rook. However, I'm not very confident that this actually works. I personally consider Setsuki to have no clear counter-picks whatsoever. I thought it was silly that she was not banned in the various 19XX tournaments that mysticjuicer held, and I believe that the stats confirmed that she thrived in that environment.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jul 13, 2017 18:45:03 GMT 1
Setsuki is a problem. Troq is the consensus counter-pick. He has the grappler dominant throws with the ability to combo, he deals card efficient damage, he has Q and AA, to contest everything but Sets Q in neutral, he has dodges, and a 45 damage 3-card super for sudden burst damage.
Rook does okay but suffers from low damage throws, only AA to contest neutral, and worse 2.2 speed J. Setsuki K also defangs Rock Armor as a real threat.
Midori does okay but suffers from card innefficiency, and worse speeds overall.
I might consider banning her in 19XX but worry that'll mean EVEN MORE Argagargs in the format.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Jul 13, 2017 18:54:56 GMT 1
Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread: just to explain the reason I didn't start out by banning Sets in 19XX was because she wasn't the same level of problem in 20XX as Troq/Zane (highest win-rates and highest play-rates). Troq/Zane/Geiger being played near constantly, and their effect on play rates of characters who lost the worst to them, were the impetus for the format. DeGrey, I've personally never really had an issue with, so I might consider bringing him back into the fold, but I banned him at the time because he had a high enough play and win-rate that it felt reasonable.
Now that Setsuki is seeing more success in the 20XX format, I'd consider maybe swapping her out and DeGrey in. I'll have to do some thinking and solicit some pros/cons from people who don't think DeGrey is overrated as top-tier.
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Post by Southpaw Hare on Jul 13, 2017 22:31:05 GMT 1
Sorry for temporarily hijacking the thread: just to explain the reason I didn't start out by banning Sets in 19XX was because she wasn't the same level of problem in 20XX as Troq/Zane (highest win-rates and highest play-rates). Troq/Zane/Geiger being played near constantly, and their effect on play rates of characters who lost the worst to them, were the impetus for the format. DeGrey, I've personally never really had an issue with, so I might consider bringing him back into the fold, but I banned him at the time because he had a high enough play and win-rate that it felt reasonable. Now that Setsuki is seeing more success in the 20XX format, I'd consider maybe swapping her out and DeGrey in. I'll have to do some thinking and solicit some pros/cons from people who don't think DeGrey is overrated as top-tier. There is nothing wrong with banning 5 characters. That's 25% of the cast, which is a lot, but not unreasonable. The question is more of whether, once another character is removed, that elevates yet a new problem character to the point where it seems like you have to keep banning more and more. I don't think so, personally, but it's an open question. And I doubt Argagarg is too strong in a meta without these 5 characters; he'd probably be popular, but only because he's such a unique, staple character in general.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jul 14, 2017 9:26:49 GMT 1
flagrantangles I vaguely remember you saying Quince was a decent CP for setsuki, does this mean you've changed your opinion on that MU? I remember not being particularly convinced due to Quince's slow set up and sets deck velocity for jokers to help her break out of the washer. Just throwing some random theorising out there, but what about Lum as a CP for Setsuki? Timed boss battle with dominant throw vs low HP character sounds like it could be ok.
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Post by scymrian on Jul 14, 2017 12:45:18 GMT 1
I've got no analysis to back this up, but I'm never upset about having to play against Setsuki with Onimaru. Just gotta play 10s as dodge followups instead of unblockables.
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Post by flagrantangles on Jul 17, 2017 23:11:16 GMT 1
Hmmmmmm, I still don't mind Quince versus Setsuki but I don't win it against good Setsuki players so I should re-evaluate my character choices. I know people keep recommending Troq but I hate playing him so that's just not gonna work. Playing to win has never resonated with me; I won't sacrifice my fun just to win. Teehee! I think I should try Valerie and Onimaru. I favor Valerie because I think she's less counterpick-able and because I'm more comfortable with her than I am with Onimaru. However, I'm also considering just counterpicking Setsuki with more Setsuki since I always find dittos weirdly amusing. Those snoc tournaments give me the giggles. As for 19XX/20XX stuff, I've never been a person who minds Geiger or even DeGrey though I think DeGrey is the worse one since his MU's against Lum and Onimaru are quite skewed. Then again, Geiger murders the grapplers so maybe it's a wash? Hmmmmm, I think I just like Geiger so I'm just being biased. Anywho, I just like playing Yomi so I'm gonna play in whatever formats are available.
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Post by thehug0naut on Jul 20, 2017 12:16:47 GMT 1
I played an IYL match last night where I picked Jaina into a relatively new Troq and Setsuki player. I was expecting Troq as his first pick but ended up playing most of the set vs Setsuki. Now obviously they weren't playing Setsuki at the same level as Fivec but Jaina felt rather capable in her role as ninja slayer. I think the main thing Jaina can do successfully is heavily discourage throwing and attack reveals oustide of Q. This means that you can sneak in more throws when Setsuki dodges. You definitely need to play to have AA in hand though as you need to have high damage combats when you do win combat, but thankfully Jaina can manage this fairly well and fairly quickly. To add to mysticjuicer 's 19XX discussion, I seem to oscillate between "DeGrey isn't that bad" and "DeGrey is satan in lawyer robes" (usually the latter when I have played against him recently). I'd definitely agree he is sufficiently overtuned to be kept out for 19XX. However I probably enjoy playing DeGrey more than Setsuki, since her desired gameplan precludes hand valuation. I think its important to note that the 19XX carousel has kind of been reduced to "pick setsuki" since she is so strong versus the entire cast. Since 19XX was designed to explore new matchups, I think this reason alone makes it worth banning her to see how it changes things. I also don't think it would be unreasonable to ban a total of 5 characters, but probably 25% of the cast is about the limit you would want for a "short banlist"
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Post by thehug0naut on Aug 19, 2017 9:28:35 GMT 1
Played some silly Arg vs Menelker casuals against copper8642 the other night. Not a matchup I'd played before, and obviously we were playing a lot like goons since it was casuals, but I'd like to share my thoughts to maybe start a discussion. It feels quite swingy since Menelker can deal true soviet damage, but dies quickly to hex if Arg can get a bubble shield up. Importantly the standard Copper system is less effective than normal because A-blocking Q is a strong punish. Copper got round this by switching to a close to mono-block range early game with the aim to threaten Q/DSD for ever. I was generally reluctant to throw Mene since he outspeeds Arg throws and being hit for a billion damage off of slow J is not fun, so this worked fairly well. It would work less well if I adjusted better to his range shift, but it took me a little by surprise. Outside of adding DSD to the mixup, in neutral Mene's black kings become super important, as Arg can only tie them with his Q unless he plays AA, which is risky without power up options or a slew of 10s in hand. Copper managed to get a few Ks in as I went for some greed plays on KD turns. A fact he pointed out afterwards, because he's a darling On thinking about it, Arg should probably put more dodges into his neutral range, which is not usually something I usually do much of, I tend to prefer to use them very late game or when I have BS up for that maximum damage efficiency. I was also more scared of 7-throw than I probably needed to be, as it doesn't hurt Arg as much as 10* on an Ace.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Aug 19, 2017 13:30:40 GMT 1
Arg dodging early-mid game is completely fine. Its 8+ Damage KD with a throw card! It can be more with bubble shield active or in matchups where Arg can play a safe attack that beats everything. In this case its gold burst... which isn't always optimal, but sometimes is.
Args mixup is very real if you power up for a Bubble Shield here. Your Normal attack beats Throw/ some blocks and your A block is scary here.
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Post by flagrantangles on Aug 19, 2017 18:22:03 GMT 1
Menelker needs plenty of cards to really keep his damage going, in my experience, so I feel like blocking and dodging are decent options against him. The mixup there is, of course, that bonecracker will fuck you up. If you've got a 10 in hand or if your hand isn't easily exploited, you can kinda ignore the threat that it poses, though. Frankly, saving your 10's for his 10's is probably better since you can always power up for a block.
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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 5, 2017 15:40:44 GMT 1
How do we feel about Valerie versus Zane? I didn't think it was really so bad, but cpat told me that he thought it was a pretty bad MU for her. Granted, I think that Val has a better MU against Zane than most of the characters I play. I'm tempted to retry Geiger, but I think he might just be too slow, generally. I'm also not opposed to Persephone but she just dies so fast.
The real theme of my post is how to defeat Zane without resorting to Troq/Setsuki since I think they're so boring. I could try Rook and Onimaru, but I need the TECH.
Enjoy the rambles.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 9, 2017 5:29:08 GMT 1
How do we feel about Valerie versus Zane? I didn't think it was really so bad, but cpat told me that he thought it was a pretty bad MU for her. Granted, I think that Val has a better MU against Zane than most of the characters I play. I'm tempted to retry Geiger, but I think he might just be too slow, generally. I'm also not opposed to Persephone but she just dies so fast. The real theme of my post is how to defeat Zane without resorting to Troq/Setsuki since I think they're so boring. I could try Rook and Onimaru, but I need the TECH. Enjoy the rambles. If you like Geiger vs Zane a good neutral card is AA 2.0 side. Zane also doesn't always have a 2 or EVEN a 3 attack. Gotta disrespect him with those 2s, 3s, and 5s. Despite it being a "sorta bad" matchup Valerie does have some good things versus Zane. That's a lot better than a ton of characters so IDK if I'd put it as "bad" as most other characters to play into Zane. IF you're good at playing Valerie into Zane than that's your thing. I don't really got good Zane CP ideas honestly outside of what you mentioned with Rook, Oni, Troq.
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Post by mysticjuicer on Sept 10, 2017 20:14:57 GMT 1
Personally I would not want to play a character as soft to earlygame throws as Valerie against a character with earlygame throws as strong as Zane. I want to block A LOT as Valerie though, so other people may feel differently. Still, you have a life disadvantage, relatively few clean answers to meaties, and middling ability to punish off a dodge. Zane's K on wake-up puts a real hamper on your moments of advantage-time in the MU.
If you're open to the idea of using Rook or Oni, I'd personally pursue that instead, though I recognize it can be a big adjustment.
The key to Oni vs Zane is that, with 5s, Qs, and FA, an almost limitless ability to contest Zane's meaties, as well as an aggressive answer to Max Anarchy if he eventually gets it. The difficult part of the match-up is that Zane has A LOT of dodges, and good damage off of any throws or attacks that he does land. It's kind of a weird anti-grappler MU for Oni: you're mostly playing attack/blodge, and your opponent is mostly playing blodge/throw.
Rook vs Zane is very similar to Troq vs Zane, except all your attacks are worse. You use 5-block to make Zane worried about playing Anarchy raw. Your 4 and 5 attacks are good neutral tools that can deal good damage, and your J is an expensive, high-damage card reveal that controls the neutral game in the midgame. When you're KD, you have the twin threats of K/AA to make Zane scared.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Sept 11, 2017 21:10:29 GMT 1
I forgot Rook vs Zane: don't play for Rook Armor vs Zane. Zane has lots of KD tools from Attack. Even if he doesn't have J his reward is so high its probably not worth it.
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Post by thehug0naut on Sept 12, 2017 10:21:10 GMT 1
Yeah you'd be spending 5 cards to at best deal 24 damage *if* he doesn't have a J or a joker. This is real bad when you consider that even without those Zane can play 2-throw-9 for 17 damage at the cost of only 1 card. If he has a Q in hand or flips one then even if you get to RA you almost certainly made a really bad trade.
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Post by flagrantangles on Sept 12, 2017 14:21:14 GMT 1
Okay, okay. I'm getting the TECH. I think I lean towards Rook because I enjoy him generally and it's who I started out playing. Then again, Onimaru is fun and both of his hard CPs (Arg and DeGrey) are covered by my Quince so I'm not even worried about not having an answer for this particular rendition of the carousel.
I need to know more about how Onimaru plays against Zane though. I get that he has lots of answers to meaties in his 5, Queen, FA, and Ace but I'm finding it hard to adjust how Onimaru wants to play in neutral since Quince wants to avoid getting knocked down altogether since he doesn't have any attack to contest meaties.
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Post by flagrantangles on Mar 7, 2018 16:36:59 GMT 1
Guys, Quince/Rook is a fun matchup. There's such tension when Quince uses Positive Spin on Kings, knowing that Rook has a billion answers to it, but because he has so many answers, will Quince just attack?! I also enjoy that Quince can kinda play his 3 attack with impunity because, while it's gobbled up by Rook's King, it still gives you advantage time. Rook's blocks are so oppressive and if you don't build up your hand well enough, he can give Quince some major trouble.
Anywho, those were just some musings since I'd like for the Yomi section to be a bit more lively. JUST A TOUCH.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Mar 11, 2018 2:52:38 GMT 1
here are my matchup numbers for quince-rook 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.
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Post by flagrantangles on Mar 12, 2018 14:18:49 GMT 1
Quince is so good at counting! I was talking about Quince/Arg with Zqxx after our forum QM battle and he was saying he needs to find a Quince CP since me and migo gave him the business and he thinks the MU is worse than what he initially thought, especially since Quince can really pile on the damage from a combat win. All this to say that navigating the neutral is fraught because the threat of Quince's K-Spin means that Arg has to be a little conservative with using the 7 and 8 throws but can't just poke forever since Quince will build a hand/dodge into advantage time. I can certainly say that I'm never worried when I come across an Arg with Quince. I don't always win the MU, but I think it's a fun one from the Quince side. Also, there's nothing better in this world than undercutting Arg's attempt at a 3-crossup with Patriot Mirror.
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Post by cpat on Mar 18, 2018 17:27:08 GMT 1
Quince-Arg is a fun matchup. Mad King and I tested this matchup by playing both sides of it and we both concluded that it was about 5.5 in Quince's favor.
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Post by "Jonny D" Jonny "Jonny D" D on Mar 19, 2018 7:47:51 GMT 1
I'm of the opinion that its 5.5 Quince favored too.
Quince: +7 Throw/Dodge "unbeatable" on Pat Mirror +Great throw damage. +Lots of dodges with KD tools. (Throw, Ace, Q) +Chip damage leads to Spins. +7 Throw can possibly be recurred if Argagarg doesn't counter your 2*.
Argagarg: +Way better neutral. +Bubble Shield turns are super strong against Quince. One of the best. (Rook performs the worst on Bubble Shield turns the most imo.) +Quince doesn't get a mixup when he beats Bubble Shield. Even if he chips the Shield he's using a Spin/Mirror to attempt to get out and deal no damage spending resources. You're back to neutral when it ends. +Can counter his 2* Ability when Quince is starved for cards. Quince really wants to convert his card into damage so seeing Quince low on cards is more common in this matchup. +Beats 2.6/2.8 on a lot of attacks so Quince has to be careful with his Throw Duffs + Cross Up defense. +Can checkmate/Lockdown Quince when he's KD'd.
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